Turkish F-4 beat Chinese Su-27S 0:8

[no_name]

Were past exercise result with russia and pakistan published?

It could be a fake news, or the score the other way round.

 

[siegecrossbow]

i am questioning the validity of this news though.

We have exercised with Russia and Pakistan before, so it's not like we are cavemen with no experience. Russia and Pakistan are top line air forces with either current or recent wars going on.

Is Turkey significantly, not just slightly, but significantly and supremely superior to pakistan and russia? In fact, so superior that its 2nd generation planes beat our 3rd generation planes? Do you realize how superior their pilots would have to be? If they're that superior, our pilots must be braindead... but that doesn't explain how we didn't lose badly against Russia and Pakistan.

Another thing that is irksome is that we don't know the circumstance of the fight. If it is a dogfight then the PLAAF pilots must be morons if they lost. The F-4 was designed when the USAF still believed that future air battles will be dictated by long range missiles and manueverability really wasn't its game. Vietnamese and Chinese pilots have downed F-4s with MIG-19s in gun range before. If it is a BVR fight and the F-4s had AWAC support then it is possible for them to gain an upper hand.

 

[no_name]

And because they can't fire real missiles it could be that a kill is counted as soon as radar gets a lock on. So basically just a comparison of radar range and electronics and ECM exercise.

And if they locked on one plane there is no reason why they can't do the same to the other seven.

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

Does any one know if during the exercise Nato configured datalinks and space based assets were used by the Turkish side.....and the PLAAF forced to depend on Turkish controllers and a datalink non - compatible with NATO systems ( i.e the same case that happened with the Indian Sukhois in Red Flag ) ......

a 0: 8 ratio in favour of F4's against Sukhois is unbelievable ........not even novice Chinese Sukhoi pilots can fare so badly against F4' s in one on one engagements......one of the most bizarre bits of defense news ever to come out......

 

[below_freezing]

Does any one know if during the exercise Nato configured datalinks and space based assets were used by the Turkish side.....and the PLAAF forced to depend on Turkish controllers and a datalink non - compatible with NATO systems ( i.e the same case that happened with the Indian Sukhois in Red Flag ) ......

a 0: 8 ratio in favour of F4's against Sukhois is unbelievable ........not even novice Chinese Sukhoi pilots can fare so badly against F4' s in one on one engagements......one of the most bizarre bits of defense news ever to come out......

someone did a computer simulation in a chinese forum. the F-4 lost every time even with 2 BVR missiles while the Su-27 had nothing but fuel (downed with the gun).

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

i am questioning the validity of this news though.

We have exercised with Russia and Pakistan before, so it's not like we are cavemen with no experience. Russia and Pakistan are top line air forces with either current or recent wars going on.

Is Turkey significantly, not just slightly, but significantly and supremely superior to pakistan and russia? In fact, so superior that its 2nd generation planes beat our 3rd generation planes? Do you realize how superior their pilots would have to be? If they're that superior, our pilots must be braindead... but that doesn't explain how we didn't lose badly against Russia and Pakistan.

Bro....take it from the IAF personnel....Pakistani pilots in terms of training are head and heels above any middle eastern pilots ( including Israeli ones )........if your air force exercised and trained with the PAF and were praised by them .....rest assured they are competitive.....perhaps the PLAAF shall issue a clarification and analyze the reason what went wrong......by the face of it ...cant be the capability of Chinese pilots by any means.....

 

[below_freezing]

Bro....take it from the IAF personnel....Pakistani pilots in terms of training are head and heels above any middle eastern pilots ( including Israeli ones )........if your air force exercised and trained with the PAF and were praised by them .....rest assured they are competitive.....perhaps the PLAAF shall issue a clarification and analyze the reason what went wrong......by the face of it ...cant be the capability of Chinese pilots by any means.....

yes i'm amazed, i don't think pilots comparable in skill to elite IAF ones could fail so badly; we sent our 2nd Air Division troops, the best of the best. but remember this is news made up by a netizen on page 12 of a defense forum. i doubt it even needs to be corrected; if it was true the censors would have taken it down right away, and another member confirmed that it is actually illegal to spread information about closed military activities online.

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

someone did a computer simulation in a chinese forum. the F-4 lost every time even with 2 BVR missiles while the Su-27 had nothing but fuel (downed with the gun).

Bro, that is understandable....cause as I read the air frame of sukhoi 27 is more or less the same as the sukhoi series upto Su 35 ( capable of extreme maneuverability.....moves like Pugachevs Cobra, Herbst maneuver etc...)...as I recall the Su can evade BVR missiles fired provided its radar detects the aircraft within a certain range.....in case of a Gun kill as in a dogfight ....F-4s are dead meat.....

 

[ptldM3]

Results of exercises rarely make it to the public, actual kill ratio's even more so. It would be interesting to know the circumstances of the exercise, was data link involved? Were both sides fed from one primary awacs platform or did each side use their own? What was the experience level? What was the stand off range? Was either side outnumbered? Was there any restrictions placed on either side? And what was the avionics suits on both platforms, was one outdated?

If we assume the news to be authentic, it should be noted that Turkey is apart of NATO, so they will log more flight hours. From what I understand Chinese pilots do not receive the most flight hours; one program stated that even Chinese J-10 pilots which are considered the best of the Chinese Air Force only log a little over 100 hours annually, 140 if memory serves me correct. With that said, I do not know the skill level or experience of either side that was involved. However, I do believe that the Turkish pilots were the more experienced bunch.

It should also be noted that German pilots flying downgraded Mig-29's performed well against F-16's and F-18's, so pilot skill plays a crucial roll. Similarly, Russian Air Force Mig-29's and Mig-23's faced off regularly and the more experienced Mig-23 pilots scored kills against Mig-29's despite the fact that the Mig-29 was by far more advanced platform and in BVR it outperformed the Mig-23 in every aspect, also the the Mig-23 and F-4 are similar in performance.

If reports are true I believe that the Chinese Air Force needs to improve annual flight time as well as tactics.

 

[below_freezing]

the story's bullshit; i read everything and the story changes every few pages. they can't even keep their own story straight, i'm not buying.

 

[conworldus]

no need to read too much into this. The mission is find out of NATO tactics, not to win. The Su-27 sent were probably the oldest patch, and with every conceivable advanced equipment disabled. The Turkish F-4 would have all the ground and space satellite support, while the Su-27 flies completely blind with no radar. Then, the F-4 will win.

 

[topjumper]

the story's bullshit; i read everything and the story changes every few pages. they can't even keep their own story straight, i'm not buying.

I'm totally with you, I can't believe there are over 4 pages of messages here all speculating on another piece of message left by someone on a different internet forum (which has HUNDREDS of trash/YY messages posted every HOUR) without any source, the guy who did it probably suffers from attention deficit disorder and wanted to fan up some rumors, it looks like his mission is accomplished. Common sense goes a long way sometimes, I'm going to stop wasting my time on this any longer and go have a

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

i don't believe it

 

[CardSharp]

i am questioning the validity of this news though.

We have exercised with Russia and Pakistan before, so it's not like we are cavemen with no experience. Russia and Pakistan are top line air forces with either current or recent wars going on.

Is Turkey significantly, not just slightly, but significantly and supremely superior to pakistan and russia? In fact, so superior that its 2nd generation planes beat our 3rd generation planes? Do you realize how superior their pilots would have to be? If they're that superior, our pilots must be braindead... but that doesn't explain how we didn't lose badly against Russia and Pakistan.

Oh me too. I couldn't care less what "score" China achieved, but I thought it, a good opportunity to highlight the difference between the PLA and certain other armies who are afraid to innovate and grow.

 

[chengdusudise]

according to latest news;
1.we lost, su-27 vs F-4,
2. F-4 with the help of AWAC , su-27not,8 F-4 vs 2 su-27,4 rounds, we lost 8 su-27 in BVR fight and cant shot down one F-4, 0:8
3. the chinese pilots are from PLA navy, not from PLA AF,and PLA navy pilot is far inferior to PLA airforce,this is well known.
4. these pilots are F-8 pilots, they fly su-27 only severy weeks, to prepare for reciving latest J-15.
5. the su-27s are from 2th division of PLA airforce,these navy pilots are trained in 2th divison
6.navy chief of staff Wu Shengli want to see the performance of his pilots, now his pilots are mocked by PLAAF pilots, the 0:8 news is leaked from PLAAF to make navy "lost face"