Turkish Air Defence Programs

[Yatağanlı]

We should have just bought Aster or something, what a shitshow.

 

[UkroTurk]

At least 10–15 years ago we should have started investing into the development of our own Air Defense systems the way we do it now. Maybe even long before that we should have started investing in domestic capabilities and build some momentum.

I believe that with the 2,5$ billion we spent on S-400 and with the time we wasted (not even talking about the economic damage we had in recent years because of that- the whole F-35 issue, Lira collapse etc) we could have developed something better for us that is not reliant on anyone else’s will even if it was with some % of foreign Know How. So far everything we produce is of very good quality so I believe that Turkey is more than capable to produce a high performance Air Defense for a good price... I believe in all Turkish engineers and companies.

At the beginning of the story Russians had given Turkey 5.2 billion price. Then we bought s400 for 2.5 billion. It is very reasonable price. If Turkey were given some ToT systems i would appreciate our government. Unfortunately Turkiye cant maintaince s400, you even cant screw a detail.
Still s400 appears to be cheaper than Chinese offer for us .-3.5 billion usd however they gave 30% local participation and ToT.-

Now we bought 2 systems for 2.5 billion usd? Does anybody know how may systems had been offered when Russians gave 5.2 billion price the first time.??

 

[Khagan1923]

İn the beginning of the story Russians had given Turkey 5.2 billion price. Then we bought s400 for 2.5 billion. It is very reasonable price. If Turkey were given some ToTof systems i would appreciate our government. Turkiye cant maintaince s400, you even cant screw a detail.
Still s400 appears to be cheaper than Chinese offer for us .-3.5 billion usd however they gave 30% local participation and ToT.-

Now we bought 2 systems for 2.5 billion usd? Does anybody know how may systems had been offered when Russians gave 5.2 billion price the first time.??

S-400 wasnt offered by the Russians for T-LORAMIDS, I think, only S-300. Aster-30, Patriot, HQ-9 and S-300 were the candidates at the time.

The only thing I remember is Turkey wanted to buy 12 Systems. So they offered 12 S-300 Systems for 5.2 Billion $?

 

[Ansu fati]

We should have just bought Aster or something, what a shitshow.

France blocked it

 

[UkroTurk]

S-400 wasnt offered by the Russians for T-LORAMIDS, I think, only S-300. Aster-30, Patriot, HQ-9 and S-300 were the candidates at the time.

The only thing I remember is Turkey wanted to buy 12 Systems. So they offered 12 S-300 Systems for 5.2 Billion $?

No Idea. I remember just s400 were too expensive. Need to Google it.

Edit:
Russian had offered almaz antey 2500 it is more likely s300vm but the offer consisted of more missiles than current deal. İt explains the price how to have been reduced.

 

[mehmeTcc]

We should have just bought Aster or something, what a shitshow.

Turkish purchase of S-400 was about Eastern Med. and Eastern Med. only. If you look at the current situation of the Libyan and Eastern Mediterranean theaters, you would see France is against Turkey , so Aster was never considered for T-LORAMIDS to begin with. Turkish policymakers wanted something that can close the huge swaths of airspace in Antalya FIR and possibly beyond, and the American hesitations of allowing any form of local production for Patriot's resulted with S-400 purchase. American pride and Turkish stubbornness is what caused all this mess imho. If I was the one responsible for such purchase, I would buy Patriots and be done with it.

I also think that the current animosity between Turkish and American governments are caused by direct diplomacy of European Union and Israel at some extend. Libya is an important outlier and probably more important for Turkey compared to theaters in Aegean or Syria; and for the US, Turkish policy regarding Libya is far more acceptable and within American interests. Americans are spending millions for their Italian bases, in fact Italy will surpass Germany in terms of military personnel stationed in Europe. Sure enough they wouldn't want a Russian proxy, a Syria 2.0, just across their biggest European entrenchment. It won't be like 90s for sure, but I believe in next decade we will see another Israeli-Turkish alignment and Turkey being one of the most vocal supporters of the US both in Europe and in Mid. East.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

No. S-400 was acquired mostly because of 15 Temmuz Gulenist coup and to send a strong message to the US not to interfere with Turkish democracy again. From now on, Turkey will be ruled by the leaders Turkish PEOPLE vote to power, not by some CIA-appointed, pro-US general. TSK works for the interests of TURKS, not AMERICANS.

 

[mehmeTcc]

yeah sure. Never have I ever contradicted to whom TSK serves or never have I ever argued against the democracy in Turkey, yet here we are. Since you try to non sequitur hijack my arguments, you are either braindead stupid since you didn't understand any of my points in a very Dunning Kruger way or you have a different agenda; meaning you either have low IQ or low self-respect, of both of which I pity you.

Upton Clair once said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

 

[Ansu fati]

Turkish purchase of S-400 was about Eastern Med. and Eastern Med. only. If you look at the current situation of the Libyan and Eastern Mediterranean theaters, you would see France is against Turkey , so Aster was never considered for T-LORAMIDS to begin with. Turkish policymakers wanted something that can close the huge swaths of airspace in Antalya FIR and possibly beyond, and the American hesitations of allowing any form of local production for Patriot's resulted with S-400 purchase. American pride and Turkish stubbornness is what caused all this mess imho. If I was the one responsible for such purchase, I would buy Patriots and be done with it.

I also think that the current animosity between Turkish and American governments are caused by direct diplomacy of European Union and Israel at some extend. Libya is an important outlier and probably more important for Turkey compared to theaters in Aegean or Syria; and for the US, Turkish policy regarding Libya is far more acceptable and within American interests. Americans are spending millions for their Italian bases, in fact Italy will surpass Germany in terms of military personnel stationed in Europe. Sure enough they wouldn't want a Russian proxy, a Syria 2.0, just across their biggest European entrenchment. It won't be like 90s for sure, but I believe in next decade we will see another Israeli-Turkish alignment and Turkey being one of the most vocal supporters of the US both in Europe and in Mid. East.

Turkey-US/Israeli full realignment can only happen if two conditions are fulfilled:
1.installation of pro-pkk government in the next election(s) that will be catastrophic for turkish borders in the long term
2.US allows military destruction of pkk by TAF in exchange for Turkey establishing pro-US position in global/regional affairs based on win win approach for both sides

 

[mehmeTcc]

Posturing high and mighty while waiting for allowances from distant governments is quite a logical fallacy now don't you think? The same situation applies with the Russians and the S-400, if we think with your logic, sure enough Russians should be along with us in Libya instead of opposing us. This is not how any of this works. Americans are not a monolithic structure, just like ours they also have a fragmented inner mechanism where everyone has an opinion and most of the time the ones that are in power sacrifices real gains for a single percentage increase in their voters base. But at the end of the day, the technocrats who decide on those things will fix this mess. Neither US nor Turkey can afford to lose each other while there are too much at stake for both parties.

But you will learn. I used to troll this place soo hard back when I was a senior in high school, just like you guys are doing right now. I was also a spearheaded nationalist who thought in the most single dimension possible. There is no place for emotions in any of these issues, the states and institutions governing any piece of land are machines. They don't act on a pure emotional will, they act on the benefits and the benefits only. Compared to any other country that would be willing to offer a helping hand, US is the most beneficial for our countries goals. I listed several reasons above, please be kind to me and inspect them before going any further with this discussion.

 

[Ansu fati]

Posturing high and mighty while waiting for allowances from distant governments is quite a logical fallacy now don't you think? The same situation applies with the Russians and the S-400, if we think with your logic, sure enough Russians should be along with us in Libya instead of opposing us. This is not how any of this works. Americans are not a monolithic structure, just like ours they also have a fragmented inner mechanism where everyone has an opinion and most of the time the ones that are in power sacrifices real gains for a single percentage increase in their voters base. But at the end of the day, the technocrats who decide on those things will fix this mess. Neither US nor Turkey can afford to lose each other while there are too much at stake for both parties.

But you will learn. I used to troll this place soo hard back when I was a senior in high school, just like you guys are doing right now. I was also a spearheaded nationalist who thought in the most single dimension possible. There is no place for emotions in any of these issues, the states and institutions governing any piece of land are machines. They don't act on a pure emotional will, they act on the benefits and the benefits only. Compared to any other country that would be willing to offer a helping hand, US is the most beneficial for our countries goals. I listed several reasons above, please be kind to me and inspect them before going any further with this discussion.

Maybe the word allow is causing some controversy what I meant was US tactical silence while Turkey dissolves pkk in northern Syria
Certainly there are pro-turkish voices among professionals but american public(both the left and right) aren’t a fan of Turkey congress isn’t either which is dominated by anti turkish lobbies(israeli greek armenian and now even the wahhabi since 2016)
Creation of fake ethnostate from parts of Syria Iraq Iran and Turkey will solve two important goals:Israel will be left as undisputed power in ME(regional objective) and chinese BRI project will be destroyed(global)
When pkk is destroyed then americans would engage much more with Turkey like it was in the good old days but if the plan A (which is pkkstan) is still alive then I don’t see the reason why would US need Turkey as it was in the past
That’s why I think my two points in the previous reply are legitimate maybe should’ve written extensive clarification before but here you have it
russians are the biggest snakes I know that they support both sides in Libya as long as the conflict stays forever which would mean that the eastern mediterranean gas is underdeveloped=less competition for russian gas
If I have insulted you in any way then it was probably unintentional we enter now into geopolitical dimension of the air defense issue therefore I will post reply in the appropriate thread

 

[Neptune]

If price and ToT were the main concerns, then obviously it was a very stupid decision.

No country ever will give even a small level of ToT when it comes to sophisticated air defense architectures except for assembly rights but even that's a shady possibility.

For the price on the other hand, does anyone remember this offer made by US for 3.5 billion dollars only? It was made on December 2018 before all that shitshow started when they tried to convince us S-400 will actually collect data on F-35 and relay it back to Russia.
- 80x MIM-104E GEM-T missiles.
- 60x PAC-3 MSE missiles
- Related radar, sensor and station equipment for a total of 4 systems and 20 launchers. (I am not an air force guy so I am not sure how many systems it would actually make).

The point is, this was the exact type and number of systems we would actually need. If you still think the price is high, check the Patriot offers made to Poland and Romania and the number of systems proposed. Then you'll see that the offer above was probably the best offer any country could get.

WASHINGTON, December 18, 2018 - The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Turkey of eighty (80) Patriot MIM-104E Guidance Enhanced Missiles (GEM-T) missiles, sixty (60) PAC-3 Missile Segment Enhancement (MSE) missiles and related equipment for an estimated cost of $3.5 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale today.

Turkey has requested the possible sale of four (4) AN/MPQ-65 Radar Sets, four (4) Engagement Control Stations, ten (10) Antenna Mast Groups (AMGs), twenty (20) M903 Launching Stations, eighty (80) Patriot MIM-104E Guidance Enhanced Missiles (GEM-T) missiles with canisters, sixty (60) PAC-3 Missile Segment Enhancement (MSE) missiles, and five (5) Electrical Power Plant (EPP) III. Also included with this request are communications equipment, tools and test equipment, range and test programs, support equipment, prime movers, generators, publications and technical documentation, training equipment, spare and repair parts, personnel training, Technical Assistance Field Team (TAFT), U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering, and logistics support services, Systems Integration and Checkout (SICO), field office support, and other related elements of logistics and program support. The total estimated program cost is $3.5 billion[\QUOTE]

Source: DoD DSCA

 

[UkroTurk]

If price and ToT were the main concerns, then obviously it was a very stupid decision.

No country ever will give even a small level of ToT when it comes to sophisticated air defense architectures except for assembly rights but even that's a shady possibility.

For the price on the other hand, does anyone remember this offer made by US for 3.5 billion dollars only? It was made on December 2018 before all that shitshow started when they tried to convince us S-400 will actually collect data on F-35 and relay it back to Russia.
- 80x MIM-104E GEM-T missiles.
- 60x PAC-3 MSE missiles
- Related radar, sensor and station equipment for a total of 4 systems and 20 launchers. (I am not an air force guy so I am not sure how many systems it would actually make).

The point is, this was the exact type and number of systems we would actually need. If you still think the price is high, check the Patriot offers made to Poland and Romania and the number of systems proposed. Then you'll see that the offer above was probably the best offer any country could get.


Source: DoD DSCA

Now it is comprehensible how the given price was reduced by Russians. We just bought 2 systems instead of 4 as well as less number of missiles.

 

[Khagan1923]

If price and ToT were the main concerns, then obviously it was a very stupid decision.

No country ever will give even a small level of ToT when it comes to sophisticated air defense architectures except for assembly rights but even that's a shady possibility.

For the price on the other hand, does anyone remember this offer made by US for 3.5 billion dollars only? It was made on December 2018 before all that shitshow started when they tried to convince us S-400 will actually collect data on F-35 and relay it back to Russia.
- 80x MIM-104E GEM-T missiles.
- 60x PAC-3 MSE missiles
- Related radar, sensor and station equipment for a total of 4 systems and 20 launchers. (I am not an air force guy so I am not sure how many systems it would actually make).

The point is, this was the exact type and number of systems we would actually need. If you still think the price is high, check the Patriot offers made to Poland and Romania and the number of systems proposed. Then you'll see that the offer above was probably the best offer any country could get.


Source: DoD DSCA

US gave us an good offer and no country will give another ToT on an strategic asset. This was always a crazy demand from our side.

Turkey will never give another country ToT if we ever export Hisar and Siper to another country not even to Pakistan or Azerbaijan. Expecting other to do something you would never do is crazy. Collaboration on a project is something else. They could have asked for support for Siper from Raytheon, just like we did with BAE Systems for TFX. I'm very sure the Americans would have been fine with it.


For me ToT was for the Government an easy way to decline an good offer. Why did we buy S-400 without ToT when ToT was an critical demand from us but didn't buy Aster or Patriots?

S-400 was an purely political buy, prove me wrong.

 

[Pax Ottomana]

yeah sure. Never have I ever contradicted to whom TSK serves or never have I ever argued against the democracy in Turkey, yet here we are. Since you try to non sequitur hijack my arguments, you are either braindead stupid since you didn't understand any of my points in a very Dunning Kruger way or you have a different agenda; meaning you either have low IQ or low self-respect, of both of which I pity you.

Upton Clair once said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

I don't know why you flipped out. I simply stated the fact that the S-400s weren't bought for "the East Med only" as you'd claimed and added that TSK's days of doing USA's bidding in Turkey was over. You can act tough and call me all kinds of nonsense from behind your keyboard, but understand that it doesn't impress anyone who's worth his salt, nor does it add inches to your dick. That said, this is an internet forum and people speak their minds as they please. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen.

Back to the topic:

USA almost destroyed democracy in Turkey (again) in 2016 with their CIA-backed FETO/Gulenist corps, while supporting and arming the PKK/YPG terrorists against us. We signed the Russian S-400 deal in 2017 as a response to these American hostilities. And some of you still wonder why we didn't accept the US "offer" on Patriots in 2018 which was STILL conditional upon Congress approval?

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