Turkey navy to escort aid ships to Palestinians in Gaza

[Meengla]

Pals should quickly accept the the 2011 borders with minor land swap and adjustments. No need to cry over East Jerusalem. It is gone.

Ah, ha! You keep digging yourself in a hole. You need to understand that there are no Muslims out there who will accept that. You are actually not only asking the Muslims to do that but also asking the world to accept Israel's annexation of the Pal land which is really, technically, and morally an ugly thing to do.

 

[FaujHistorian]

.... it could be the 'lost in translation' effect: Turkish-Arabic-English mis-mash. At least I hope so!

Good analysis.

Just to add.

This was a Turkish-Arabic mental orgasm. Aljazeera aka Al- janaza types wanted to create a militant stir and Turkish Islamists went along for the 5 minutes of fame ride.

The problem I saw in this thread was to see, so many of my fellow Paks ooing and awing and having mental orgasm along with the Arabs. That's what was puzzling.

Or perhaps, may be not!

Peace.

 

[ovarel]

I think we may be very close to some kind of agreements in the region

There has to be a "paradigm shift" in Israel,so that we can dream about it.

But now even this far-right cabinet is not changing let alone a paradigm shift.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

Arabs in general and Pals in particular squandered 17+ years to accept the borders and live peacefully next to Israel. This would have included half of Jerusalem too.

there is much truth to this as well....

apart from 1973 --during the days of lingering ''pan arab nationalism'' -- the Arabs themselves have allowed themselves to become divided politically.


the thing is though --- there was no Palestinian ''army'' fighting the israelis in 67 or 73. Those were surrounding states fighting the battles of a greater war. The israelis used its victory (one which wouldnt be possible without liberal support from outside) as an excuse to say ''we are in a hostile neighbourhood; as Gods chosen people we have rights to this land'' etc. etc.

the israeli PR machines were working over-time (and they are VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY good at that kind of stuff --regardless of facts vs. propaganda)

it is really a blunder of the ''Arab world''; Palestinian nationalism existed for long time, and their blunder was when they allowed themselves also to be factionalized, used and abused (Fatah, PLO, Jihad Council, Hamas, etc. etc.)

Too bad Pals wanted guns and bullets instead of peace, and in the end poor people got what they wanted. guns and bullets and now rockets.

the guns, bullets and suicide bombings were a direct reaction to Palestinians being killed, homes being bulldozed, forced evacuations from farmlands, and endless checkpoints and humiliation (all of which are illegal to begin with)

of course, sending a suicide bomber on a bus loaded with civilians is inexcusable and wrong.

the Palestinians I think (even the ''militant outfits'') are maturing; they know that if they attack, they must be prepared for disproportionate retaliation by israelis....that is why Hamas is adopting the Hezbollah model:

have a political wing, have a strong media etc. and be vocal; work closely with the people.......and then of course the armed wing which is in charge of the defence (through regular and irregular means)

Hamas and Fatah need to unite and work towards a greater cause...nobody will recognize or support Palestinian nationhood when the people themselves are divided on political lines.



looking to today -- Turkiye is a rising regional power, can't deny that. They are becoming increasingly confident in their diplomacy, and increasingly assertive as well. While the Arabs are busy in their revolutions and insurrections, Turkiye economically and militarily is in a position of strength. I was in Turkiye during the israeli operations in Gaza which took many lives. This had a huge impact on Turkish society --one that regularly reads newspapers and watches the news. The Palestinian flags went up, emotions ran high. The government is merely mirroring the sentiments of the people on the ground.

Mavi Marmara was simply a manifestation of that.


sending supplies, aid goods, etc. should never be mistaken as a hostile act. It was a humanitarian one. Those 9 Turks should NOT have been attacked. It was very fool-hardy of the israelis to alienate and anger one of the few allies it had.

and in fact, an apology and compensation is very much in order as far as i'm concerned...the damage was done!

Peace.

a favourable outcome

 

[Meengla]

There has to be a "paradigm shift" in Israel,so that we can dream about it.But now even this far-right cabinet is not changing let alone a paradigm shift.

My understanding is that there IS a lobby in Israel which is willing to give up significant land for peace. I don't know how much relevant they are but they ARE there. Read Haaretz--one of the mainstream Israeli newspapers. Many Israeli noble souls are appalled by what's being done in their name. Many are pure practical person who can see a large, alienated Pal population without equal rights in and around Israel is very bad for Israel itself.
But I think Israeli society itself is hostage to the powerful, violent 'Settlement Enterprise'.
I don't know when will a paradigm shift going to come from? But it is not a hopeless situation either. At least not yet.

 

[FaujHistorian]

..... there are no Muslims out there who will accept that [Jerusalem is unified and as capital of Israel]. .....

Off course my dear poster. 99% of so-called Muslims do not live within 100 miles of Jerusalem. So they can continue denying and ooing and awing and crying. Does not matter. These so-called Muslims are not suffering from the loss of their country. In fact many of these so-called Muslims have their behinds squarely fitted in the air-conditioned comfy apartments situated in the West. So yes they have nothing to loose (at least not in the short run) so they can go on living in mental lala land .

Like someone said, Ahmadenejat will fight Israel until the last Palestinian.

Your statement is the same in its effect. You want to fight for Jerusalem until the last Palestinian.

How cowardly is this stance. Do you ever realize it?

Let Palestinians accept what they can get, they have to live in the land. Rest of us are just watching tamasha. Sadly.


peace.

 

[ovarel]

My understanding is that there IS a lobby in Israel which is willing to give up significant land for peace. I don't know how much relevant they are but they ARE there. Read Haaretz--one of the mainstream Israeli newspapers. Many Israeli noble souls are appalled by what's being done in their name. Many are pure practical person who can see a large, alienated Pal population without equal rights in and around Israel is very bad for Israel itself.
But I think Israeli society itself is hostage to the powerful, violent 'Settlement Enterprise'.
I don't know when will a paradigm shift going to come from? But it is not a hopeless situation either. At least not yet.

I never considered Israeli society a single voice but the state of Israel is. I read Haaretz and Yedioth Ahronoth both and Haaretz is like no less of a paradise in compare to Yedioth. There are also some bigots in Haaretz as well but quite few.

Never say never,the situation is not hopeless but we better see that its not close. All the wise guys in Israel are good for finding excuses to kill. Actually this is the basic distinction between israeli left and right. They are both killers but former is more convincing than the latter.

Israeli state is not going to give up on East Jerusalem,not in the near future. So no agreement is close. In my opinion,of course.

 

[Meengla]

Let Palestinians accept what they can get, they have to live in the land. Rest of us are just watching tamasha. Sadly.
peace.

Now you are officially dishonest and manipulative! Do you know that NONE OF THE PALESTINIANS actually living 'within 100 miles' are accepting Israeli occupation? Give me examples of Pal factions. Forget Hamas. Lets' talk of those who actually live in the W. Bank.
Let me guess...the Pals are so 'stupid' that they are being proxies of Iran when they reject the occupation and the annexation of E. Jerusalem. Mr. Einstein! The problem in that region will go away the minute the Pals agree to live in a Bantustan and give up E. Jerusalem. No amount of foreign power can convince them to kill themselves. Heck, one of the biggest donors for the Pals is Americans and I am sure they would not want Pals to fight against Israel.
Is there any end to your BS? Your propaganda? Your outright lies?

 

[FaujHistorian]

there is much truth to this as well....
........

Thank you.

.. --- there was no Palestinian ''army'' fighting the israelis in 67 or 73. ....

Palestinians could not have "army" because they refused to accept their borders in 1948. Ideally they should have quickly accepted the borders, formed the government, and established important branches like Police and army.

Instead they wanted to fight militant wars against Israel. Fidyaeen was their way and not army.

In some ways, for tribal people, it is much easier to carry around guns. It takes very little effort.

Establishment of a government within specific borders on the other hand is very very challenging and difficult.

This is why you see that so many African countries have fallen the way side. Because they love to carry around AK-47 with no respect whatsover for the police and the law.

In our own country FATA is just that, a tribal lalla land where people do not want to establish modern system of government.

Afghanistan is suffering from a similar tribal diesease, and unfortunately many in Pakistan want Afgh to remain mired in war lordism and tribalism.

Hope my dear poster this explains why there was no "army" for Palestinians. Simply they didn't want it. They preferred militant bands and gangs even back in 40s,50s and 60s that were not too different from modern day $tupidities called Hamaz, Islamist Jihad, and Hizbullah.

Peace.

Peace.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

I'm not agreeing with you on that aspect, at all.

 

[jdme]

I never considered Israeli society a single voice but the state of Israel is. I read Haaretz and Yedioth Ahronoth both and Haaretz is like no less of a paradise in compare to Yedioth. There are also some bigots in Haaretz as well but quite few.

Never say never,the situation is not hopeless but we better see that its not close. All the wise guys in Israel are good for finding excuses to kill. Actually this is the basic distinction between israeli left and right. They are both killers but former is more convincing than the latter.

Israeli state is not going to give up on East Jerusalem,not in the near future. So no agreement is close. In my opinion,of course.

So it is not about Palestinian people or their homeland but 10 sq km area?

 

[Meengla]

Instead they wanted to fight militant wars against Israel. Fidyaeen was their way and not army. .

This really is a tell-tale sign of someone who is telling some BS.
An indigenous group living in a land for hundreds, if not thousands of years, was expected to accept a UN Plan in which the land would be divided. And then these 'Islamists' 'wanted' to fight just for the heck of it because they are like the FATA 'tribals' or like the African gun-toting tribals.

As I said, is there any limit to the BS spouted by this guy? How may nationalities/ethnicities/religions will this guy abuse to defend Israeli occupation of Palestinians?

 

[jdme]

There has to be a "paradigm shift" in Israel,so that we can dream about it.

But now even this far-right cabinet is not changing let alone a paradigm shift.

\

It will never happen. Why would Israel unilaterally surrender? What about "paradigm shift" amongst Muslim countries?

---------- Post added at 02:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:08 PM ----------

This really is a tell-tale sign of someone who is telling some BS.
An indigenous group living in a land for hundreds, if not thousands of years, was expected to accept a UN Plan in which the land would be divided. And then these 'Islamists' 'wanted' to fight just for the heck of it because they are like the FATA 'tribals' or like the African gun-toting tribals.

As I said, is there any limit to the BS spouted by this guy? How may nationalities/ethnicities/religions will this guy abuse to defend Israeli occupation of Palestinians?

Actual story is bit different. Did you know that most of early Israeli land was owned by Jews and sold by so called Palestinians?

 

[FaujHistorian]

.... NONE OF THE PALESTINIANS actually living 'within 100 miles' are accepting Israeli occupation? ...

Occupation is a loaded word and yet you throw it around so casually.

As I said earlier, It is a Pals-Isri issue. Let them resolve it peacefully (or if they want, fight over it).

There is nothing positive when the so-called Muslims living in the West or East go pop-pop on this.

Time to end hostilities for Pakistanis in particular (doesn't matter if they live in Pak or elsewhere). Pals don't want us to do any bidding for them. They would rather have Indians as "best friends".

So quit fuming and frothing when someone uses simple and honest words to seek peace.


Thank you.

 

[Meengla]

It will never happen. Why would Israel unilaterally surrender? What about "paradigm shift" amongst Muslim countries?

'surrender'?
I think technically even the US is expecting a 'land swap' to happen eventually. I think it is hardly worth pointing out the 'swap' is based on land taken illegally and hence corresponding portions must be given back in an 'exchange'. Devil is in the details, of course. Water-rich lands or Negev desert. E. Jerusalem or not.
Palestinians have the world besides them. Even the EU can change in a heart-beat for Pals. It is only a few hundred paid-for Congressmen and Senators and a few dozens media empires who make Pals look bad.