TTP has threatened KP government, wants to establish its rule in KP

[ziaulislam]

Naam Sharia ka kaam Mirza Ali Khan aka Faqir of Ipi ka

@Mirzali Khan

Why are you mocking fiqir of ipi by the way?

 

[Areesh]

Why are you mocking fiqir of ipi by the way?

Because they consider him a hero

TTP might call rest of Pakistan kafir murtid but believe Ipi faqir to be a saint and a hero. He is like an ideologue to them and others like them

 

[ziaulislam]

People see everything in black and white
What would you have done if you had fought against British raj your whole life and In front of barrels of your guns it would rarely be British but sikhs and punjabis doing the British bidding?

Had other parts of subcontinent followed wazristan pathway British raj wouldn't have lasted for 200 yrs

In his last yrs he regretted his POST independence struggle and told his followers to accept Pakistan as well effectively ending the pushtnistan movement single handedly

It's Pakistani habit to label everyone as traitor from all the way back to khushal Khan khattack to Fatima Jinnah..

Because they consider him a hero

TTP might call rest of Pakistan kafir murtid but believe Ipi faqir to be a saint and a hero. He is like an ideologue to them and others like them

 

[Areesh]

People see everything in black and white
What would you have done if you had fought against British raj your whole life and In front of barrels of your guns it would rarely be British but sikhs and punjabis doing the British bidding?

Had other parts of subcontinent followed wazristan pathway British raj wouldn't have lasted for 200 yrs

In his last yrs he regretted his POST independence struggle and told his followers to accept Pakistan as well effectively ending the pushtnistan movement single handedly

It's Pakistani habit to label everyone as traitor from all the way back to khushal Khan khattack to Fatima Jinnah..

He might have regretted for being used as a tissue paper by rulers of Kabul however he is still used as a source of inspiration for all anti Pakistan groups both clean shaved ones like PTM or the bearded ones like TTP

But yeah you ae right. Not fault of this poor guy

 

[ziaulislam]

He might have regretted for being used as a tissue paper by rulers of Kabul however he is still used as a source of inspiration for all anti Pakistan groups both clean shaved ones like PTM or the bearded ones like TTP

But yeah you ae right. Not fault of this poor guy

So fighting the British who were bombing wazristan with airplanes was being used as tissue paper

Wow man I have to give to you..

No point of discussion with someone who thinks British raj was honorable

Good luck

Atleast now I understand how they ruled for 200 yrs

Also explains the current behavior

You should also condemn Jinnah for calling for united India first before 1940 and call him a traitor

Just like how you guys called Fatima Jinnah a traitor

 

[Areesh]

So fighting the British who were bombing wazristan with airplanes was being used as tissue paper

Wow man I have to give to you..

No point of discussion with someone who thinks British raj was honorable

Good luck

Atleast now I understand how they ruled for 200 yrs

Also explains the current behavior

You should also condemn Jinnah for calling for united India first before 1940 and call him a traitor

Just like how you guys called Fatima Jinnah a traitor

Read my post again. I didn't call his struggle against British as "being used as tissue paper by rulers of Kabul"

I called his campaign against Pakistan which he himself later on regretted and said that he regrets that he was used as a tissue paper against newly founded Pakistan by rulers of Kabul

Not my problem if you have poor comprehension skills buddy

 

[indushek]

Has that solved cultural issues though - rebel leaders having businesses or children studying doesn’t address the right aspect. Basically, the issue here is reforming an archaic culture using existing reformed people from that culture.

No unless Naga are fully embracing Indian society - no longer prone to violence or kidnappings and so on it doesn’t solve the issue. Also, naga rebels aren’t the best analogy - I would almost think of a situation akin to what Sir Syed needed to with the muslim polity all isolated to get them to engage with the British system(ironic since that “get with the occupation”) tone is resonating these days in that area


The problem here is - you’re fighting culture.

It’s almost like saying you want to redo East Pakistan and suppress Bengali culture if aspects(which may not be their fault entirely) of it were actually harming the Bengali people and keeping them suppressed.

It’s a rock and a hard place because trillions and 20 years from the United States did not change this entrenched idea enmasse although it did spur a change which was squandered by corrupt leadership.

Building schools in those tribal areas is a step - but if the elders and more importantly the political leadership is hell bent on saying X while doing Y and allegedly so are members of the deep state - then the common man will resent change regardless.

The Important question is, why should culture be fought or say changed? Shouldn't it be organic, as in the future generations choosing the path they want to? Am sure no one likes to be told, that what they are doing is wrong. It need not be something larger like culture, even small things when pointed can hurt a individual. Makes him feel pointed out and targeted, which is certainly not nice.

Maybe GOP can give the troubled areas, some sort of autonomy when it comes to local governance? However give them strict warning, when it comes to matters of country's security like external relations or defense interests etc. The little autonomy will make them feel secure and part of Pakistani nation. Build schools and hospitals, then create employment opportunities etc.. this will need money which currently is a problem for GOP. Self governance for the troubled parts, it will not take money right? Also when these people get into administrative positions, they will understand how difficult it is to handle governance and money.

Oh and like Agnostic Indian pointed out, let them some sort of money making avenue (legally I mean) to keep them invested in the country. Small things like cultural events, where their culture is displayed on TV or media and talked about and celebrated etc.. these can help too. Softer ways to make them happy?

 

[SQ8]

The Important question is, why should culture be fought or say changed? Shouldn't it be organic, as in the future generations choosing the path they want to? Am sure no one likes to be told, that what they are doing is wrong. It need not be something larger like culture, even small things when pointed can hurt a individual. Makes him feel pointed out and targeted, which is certainly not nice.

Maybe GOP can give the troubled areas, some sort of autonomy when it comes to local governance? However give them strict warning, when it comes to matters of country's security like external relations or defense interests etc. The little autonomy will make them feel secure and part of Pakistani nation. Build schools and hospitals, then create employment opportunities etc.. this will need money which currently is a problem for GOP. Self governance for the troubled parts, it will not take money right? Also when these people get into administrative positions, they will understand how difficult it is to handle governance and money.

Oh and like Agnostic Indian pointed out, let them some sort of money making avenue (legally I mean) to keep them invested in the country. Small things like cultural events, where their culture is displayed on TV or media and talked about and celebrated etc.. these can help too. Softer ways to make them happy?

A lot of it happens and a lot does not. Partly because of the lack of lines of communication as I mentioned earlier. The bigger issue is that like any cornered animal people tend to react very negatively as you rightly pointed if their core beliefs - in this case their culture is pointed out as toxic. Ive had that experience myself because I point out the same for my ethnic group and their beliefs and you get instantly excommunicated from the hive mind so to speak. However, the problem here is that if this isn’t done in a rapid organic fashion then with the current clash of both modernism and social fabric swirling in and out in Pakistan - it will lead to another civil war but in this case the outcome wont be rosy for anyone for that matter. Because the option for these tribes and the general ethnicity is to merge with Afghanistan and despite all the ethnic relations the reception there will not be garlands as is being assumed.

 

[Maula Jatt]

So fighting the British who were bombing wazristan with airplanes was being used as tissue paper

Wow man I have to give to you..

No point of discussion with someone who thinks British raj was honorable

Good luck

Atleast now I understand how they ruled for 200 yrs

Also explains the current behavior

You should also condemn Jinnah for calling for united India first before 1940 and call him a traitor

Just like how you guys called Fatima Jinnah a traitor

Damn I think you're on some Nawaz sharif aik Nasha hai stuff lol - reread what he is saying

 

[indushek]

A lot of it happens and a lot does not. Partly because of the lack of lines of communication as I mentioned earlier. The bigger issue is that like any cornered animal people tend to react very negatively as you rightly pointed if their core beliefs - in this case their culture is pointed out as toxic. Ive had that experience myself because I point out the same for my ethnic group and their beliefs and you get instantly excommunicated from the hive mind so to speak. However, the problem here is that if this isn’t done in a rapid organic fashion then with the current clash of both modernism and social fabric swirling in and out in Pakistan - it will lead to another civil war but in this case the outcome wont be rosy for anyone for that matter. Because the option for these tribes and the general ethnicity is to merge with Afghanistan and despite all the ethnic relations the reception there will not be garlands as is being assumed.

I see what you mean, but sadly rapid and organic can't go hand in hand. It's just not possible, as culture evolves over millenia or generations. Realization has to come from within, it can't be forced right?

Even the organic change mind you, comes after lot of ruptures and one generation at least suffers mentally (if not physically, cause the belief and value system is being challenged outright). Best example is the caste system in India, the ruptures are felt even today. People know how wrong it is, to look down upon someone just because of their background. They still do it many a time, why? cause it's come down over so many centuries. But then things are changing, why again? Cause the younger ones realize the wrong here.

I feel that there should be a honest national discussion, in Pakistan about these fissures and the dangers they can cause. This should be driven both in top down (few leaders who can talk honestly) and down up way (people talking about it). I am not saying it's hunky dorey here, there is still so much of this muck. Still what is today is way better than what was a generation or two back, and people realize the dangers of hanging onto this superiority or inferiority based on whatever (caste, creed, religion, language too and I mean North/South divide).

You are absolutely right though, the region you worry might be the next East Pakistan, is not going to get garlands if they chose what you fear. Curiously two groups of people speaking same language, need not necessarily feel the same and co-exist. The state of united Andhra Pradesh (from where I come), broke up due to regional feelings despite the two now divided states speaking same language. It was the first state formed on linguistic basis in India strangely, and still broke up. A honest discussion needs to happen, if the aggrieved region has to get the confidence in GOP.

 

[Mirzali Khan]

Why are you mocking fiqir of ipi by the way?

Di khalqo ta ghwoz ma nesa.

Faqir Ipi da twalo Pashtano ataal dey, daa khalq na powaheezhey. Hagha da angreyzaano zamooz da zaalmaano sara jang wakrah.

Pakistaniyan da sust haal pa lata kee dey.

Faujeets da Ishaq Dar sara Khushal dey

 

[Erieye]

Who exactly are pashtun ethnonationalists that lobe taliban? Lolz ANP? Lolz ANP ppl are famous for drugs n vodka use and love watching mujras. They also have women active in politics and not to forget are allies in PDM. Pashteen gang are also liberal and love whisky n women actively participate in politics. So i dnt know who the hell r u talking abt.
The rest mullahs have wet dreams about ummah n think nationalists are kafir. I dont know from where u get ur info but u couldnt be more wrong.

Pashtun ethnonationalists are hypocritical by nature, I know you're pashtun so you want to beat around the bush but Pashtun women in the west who have their legs out, hair out and have boyfriends were praising and worshipping the Afghan taliban? Why? Simply because they want their ethnicity to have complete control.

Ideology does not matter - ethnicity does. A Pashtun ethnonationalist with the worst ideology is better to them than a non-pashtun with your favourite ideology.

We have all seen such don't beat around the bush.

 

[Erieye]

What does sharing the same ethnicity mean exactly? Where Punjabi Muslims, Sikhs and Hindus not massacring each other (millions dying) during the partition?

You are answering your own question.

Panjabis are 3 different major religions which creates an ideological divide - the whole point of Pakistan's creation btw.

Pashtuns are all the same religion. Notice how there's no real ideological divide for them to be considered different in any aspect apart from their respective countries?

Why do you assume that Pakistanis Pasthuns and Afghan Pashtuns are identical when they have been part of two very different states for the past 75 years with different histories?

75 years is inconsequential in history. Historically it is very tiny and doesn't differentiate the same populations.

Maybe if there were some sort of aggressive assimilation programs going on in that time then you'd have a point.

PTM and Lar au Bar Yao Afghan wouldn't exist if this was true.

 

[Erieye]

Why didn’t Pakistan go at full speed after APS?

Or even in the past couple of years? There’s 0 strategy. Of course they will take advantage

how didn't they go full speed if even today everyone is still crying about all those drone strikes and operations in waziristan?...

 

[Meengla]

So you want to say that Pak army somehow is playing a massive double game where it is getting its officers and soldiers killed by TTP to impose same TTP on people where having dozens of guns in their homes is a norm and can easily fight back any proxy if they want to

Also since all this is being done to delay elections then why army troops were killed every other day in Waziristan in particular when Imran Khan was Prime minister and no elections were going to happen then

@villageidiot @Bleek Can you guys explain this logic to me???

Correct.

And it saddens me that even sane members like @ziaulislam fall for the false narrative of the army in cahoots with TTP. Why is such lack of objectivity? This forum was a fanboi club of the Pakistani military but since Imran Khan is out of power every wrong in the country is because of the the military?? Do you not know that there is no 'revolution' around the corner and by removing the one and only stable institution of Pakistan, what the future will bring? Do you not know that Imran Khan is already around 70 years old? Do you not already see a void once he croaks? Who will run the country then? Not that Imran is a shining example of intellect anyway. Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater!! Otherwise, there are horrible examples of such 'revolutions' in regions not far from Pakistan.

Coming to this topic: In my opinion, Pakistan has been harvesting (since mid 2000s) what Pakistan had sown during the Soviet-Afghan 'Jihad' of the 1980s. While that was almost certainly a majority decision of Pakistanis, except for some voices like that of Wali Khan of ANP, the blame eventually lies with the Establishment's Zia ul Haq because it was a Martial Law govt. The children of that Jihad were bound to hurt Pakistan once the Jihad was over and that's what they are exactly doing.

As for the Pashtoon aspect: The tribal area of Pakistan was always very different from the rest of Pakistan--different from even the Pashtoons of Swat or Indus Kohistan regions. They lived mentally in another century. And when they were used as the foot-soldiers, along with their cousins in Afghanistan, it was bound to happen what is happening now. And, yes, it was and is fairly easy to 'employ' such people to blow themselves up.

So what's the solution? As harsh as @Goritoes idea of 'concentration camps' sound, Pakistan, if it wants to survive as a nation, will have to take drastic measures and it should not be based on ethnicities but on data. Otherwise, there will be the continued strife in Pakistan, holding Pakistan back. Most of Pakistan is still unaffected by the sickness of the tribal 'Islam' as it afflicts a select region of Pakistan so there is still time to act. Many years ago, on this very forum, I had floated the idea of such concentration camps! Call them 're-education camps' if you like. You can find my post from then!