Time to abandon Ummah / brotherhood for greater good of the nation?

[laiqs@mi]

we have double standards all around us. what Christians choose for them self they stop us doing that thing.
an indian when his religion is attacked cries but when ever islam come under attack they start bashing islam. what RAW or CIA or Mossad does to pakistan is right but same thing if ISI do is wrong.
they stablish Nato but if some one talk about Ummah they try their best to abolish this thought.

 

[regular]

Our retarded education system teaches that we are Muslims first and then everything else - not much different than the commies...much of this Ummah ideology was a direct uplift from commies...and they funded it well too. Just look how the ummah believers were all commies in closets..starting with Bhutto, Saddam, Ghaddafi, Bashar, etc etc.....

Luve to have this kinda education system...maybe U don't want it don't follow it....its freedom for everybody and I luve that freedom of choice......

 

[lem34]

if you belive that man evolves every step he takes than i see its not worthy to follow any religious ideas in the STATE policy. The 1 million that he gave here in INDIA is not that he donated to some non believers, he gave it to MUSLIMS in INDIA, the idea of running state with out bias is a ideal idea but its not possible in reality as a leader he/she has to take sides and in doing so he takes a hefty cash ment for the people to his/he own self.
Second pointing ZARDARI for your mess is a way of revealing that you are impotent, its just my idea never to show some as a defaulter when I could have done some thing about it.
As far the MULLAH part is concerned, will you guys renounce them, its not a posibility because as per your belief they are the ones who are appointed to preserve the code of ISLAMIC conduct.

What qualification do you have to make a valid comment on this thread??

 

[laiqs@mi]

Our retarded education system teaches that we are Muslims first and then everything else - not much different than the commies...much of this Ummah ideology was a direct uplift from commies...and they funded it well too. Just look how the ummah believers were all commies in closets..starting with Bhutto, Saddam, Ghaddafi, Bashar, etc etc.....

I think you suffer from split personality disorder.
some times your posts make sense but some time you talk nonsense.

I would love this type of study. but unfortunately we have education system of 1900. which teach us to become a good slave. which teach us how should i become a good servant.
and these beliefs are not taught to muslim these are bybirth. you cant seperate these things from a muslim.

 

[somebozo]

Luve to have this kinda education system...maybe U don't want it don't follow it....its freedom for everybody and I luve that freedom of choice......

But that sentiments are not being reciprocated by anyone else but everyone takes advantage of our "Muslims first" mentality and takes full benefit of it..


We hosted millions of Afghanis our of "Muslims first" and what did we get in return?? Drugs, AK47, crimes, terrorism???

We backed the Afghan resistance against the soviets at an enormous cost to our economy and what did we get?? OBL, Talibans, drone strikes, TTP, etc????

We showed Muslim brotherhood to Libya and Iran and what did we get in return?? A stab in the back of our nuclear program???

We say Muslim first and back the Palestinian cause at an enormous cost to our economy, security and scientific exchange?? What do we get in return? Arabs signing trade and defense pacts with India???? And declaring neutrality over Kashmir???

We were front line state against communism and "Ummah" money flowed in all direction to fund, arm and train the Afghan mujaheddin..how much of that money continued to flow after the end of war to help our own reconstruction and rehab??? Zero..literally zero..infact "Muslims" were dying of starvation in Afghanistan while Mullah Omar was appealing the world for food aid...

Today we are front line state against so called "War against terrorism" much of it perpetuated due to our own follies of Muslim brotherhood..How much of Ummah money is actually flowing to help and rehab our war affected internal displaced persons and to effectively and rapidly launch rehab programs for ex-talibans???? None, Zero, Naddaaa....Not a single Muslim country has spoken against the unjust drone attacks which kill our country men..and at this need of hour, when Pakistan is left to fend off alone against NATO pressure for blocking the supply line...how many supporting statements have you heard in the press from the "Ummah"...


The truth is...Ummah money flows happily when some religious extremist need to be funded otherwise it finds very happy investments in India and rest of the world....agree our government is incompetent..but even China - which happens to be a non-muslim country and USA which is technically at semi-war with us as assisted us much better than any of our so called Ummah brothers....

We try to reach out on balanced and equal basis and what we get in return is proxies funded by either sides to settle score on 1400 year old conflicts....serious...is that what we expect from the ummah???? Killing of our citizens in the name of doctrines created by Mutaween and Ayatollahs????

More importantly this bogus concept of Ummah could not keep two wings of our country united during the 70's.

Our soldiers defend a few despotic monarchies with their blood and sweat so they can safely invest more oil revenues in India and finance more madrassah menace in Pakistan and invite more Indians to work in their countries???

Simply put, to hell with Ummah....viva le Kemalism!

 

[laiqs@mi]

But that sentiments are not being reciprocated by anyone else but everyone takes advantage of our "Muslims first" mentality and takes full benefit of it..

.
We hosted millions of Afghanis our of "Muslims first" and what did we get in return?? Drugs, AK47, crimes, terrorism???
\!

are you doing business by helping muslim brothers???
I think no one can give us bennifet or harm but ALLAH.
if we got harm from Afhgan refuges it was not because of them. it was mismangment by our govt.
what was the reason for 71 ?? afghans?? Afghan talibans???
it was because we had problems of leadership from the very begining of the nation.
after every problem you seem to critisize ummah. and until now we havent done any thing for ummah.
we cried Sab say pehly pakistan. and given Amreki's they way to kill thousand of muslims in afghanistan.
it is now days fashion to bash islam, mullah, and ummah.

 

[Xestan]

I am a bit late commenting on this thread as things like these have been what I have argued the most on PDF lol

Well, I am very disappointed by the reaction of many of the members here.

As I'm not in a mood to get into any argument, I would just like to present my view.

First of all, as Muslims, we are obliged to follow Qur'an and Sunnah, all the other things comes later.

Lets see what Qur'an and Hadith commands ME:

“The Mu’minoon are but a single Brotherhood.” (The Holy Qur’an, 49:10)

“The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin the ma`roof (all of Islam), and forbid the munkar (all that is evil; kufr): they observe regular prayers, pay Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.” (The Holy Qur’an, 9:71)

Muhammad (Salla Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) indicated in several Ahadith on unity and brotherhood as we can see in his (saaws) Farewell Sermon (khuTbat ul-wadaa`):

“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.”

Other Ahadith further elaborate on the concept of unity and brotherhood:

"A Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. He does not oppress him, nor does he leave him at the mercy of others." (Sahih Muslim Book 032, Number 6219)

The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself." (Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 12)

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude God’s favor on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren;and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire,and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided" (The Glorious Quran 3:103)

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 386: (Sahih Bukhari)

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Whoever prays like us and faces our Qibla and eats our slaughtered animals is a Muslim and is under Allah’sand His Apostle’s protection. So do not betray Allah by betraying those who are in His protection.”

Now when I have been commanded by ALLAH and His Messanger [S.A.W], I need no excuse to question the concept of "Ummah". Even then, lets analyse, today, if we see, Nationalism is one of the biggest cause of collective downfall of Muslims, if you believe in nationalism, then you should also give rights to Punjabis, Balochis etc because to them and other ethnic groups (Some people) believe in their own nationalism. Likewise, Kurdistan, Pushtoonistan and there are many examples if you wanna justify Nationalism.

As far as Patriotism for ones motherland is concerned, it is a part of the Iman, love for the Homeland but Islam teaches us to be loyal to the homeland but in the boundaries, your "nationalism" as you call it should NOT be above any other Muslim group which is not of your nationality.

When we talk about Pakistan, Pakistan came into being believing in the ideology of Islam, why are forgetting our founding Fathers? Have we ever analysed what they left for us, Do I need to explain the concept of Pan-Islamism that Allama Iqbal presented?

Do you want me to quote Quaid e Azam on the Unity of Muslims? He was a frontline activist for the cause of Palestine.

Unity of Muslims is the need of the hour. Whether you agree with me or disagree, my devotion towards my other Muslim brothers and Sisters is not dependent on how they look at me, but how ALLAH will look at me from above.

"In taza khudaon mein bada sabsay watan hai; Jo pairahan iska hai, voh mazhab ka kafan hai (Of all the new false gods, the biggest is the motherland (watan); The garment of this idea is actually the death-shroud of religion)."

-Allama Iqbal

On 15 October 1937, in the course of his presidential address to the All-India Muslim League Session at Lucknow, Muhammad Ali Jinnah said:

“May I now turn and refer to the question of Palestine? It has moved the Mussalmans all over India most deeply. The whole policy of the British Government has been a betrayal of the Arabs, from its very inception. Fullest advantage has been taken of their trusting nature. Great Britain has dishonoured her proclamation to the Arabs, which had guaran-teed them complete independence for the Arab homelands and the formation of an Arab Confederation under the stress of the Great War. After having utilized them, by giving them false promises, they installed themselves as the Mandatory Power with that infamous Balfour Declaration, which was obviously irreconcilable and incapable of simultaneous execution. Then, having pursued the policy to find a national home for the Jews, Great Britain now proposes to partition Palestine, and the Royal Commission’s recommendation completes the tragedy. If given effect to, it must necessarily lead to the complete ruination and destruction of every legitimate aspiration of the Arabs in their homeland — and now we are asked to-look at the realities! But who created this situation? It has been the handiwork of and brought about sedulously by the British statesmen … I am sure I am speaking not only of the Mussalmans of India but of the world; and all sections of thinking and fair-minded people will agree, when I say that Great Britain will be digging its grave if she fails to honour her original proclamation, promises and intentions — pre war and even post-war — which were so unequivocally expressed to the Arabs and the world at large. I find that a very tense feeling of excitement has been created and the British Government, out of sheer desperation, are resorting to repressive measures, and ruthlessly dealing with the public opinion of the Arabs in Palestine. The Muslims of India will stand solid and will help the Arabs in every way they can in the brave and just struggle that they are carrying on against all odds.”



I choose to follow my ideals, starting from Prophet Muhammed [S.A.W], to our great leaders, Iqbal and Jinnah Period!

 

[somebozo]

are you doing business by helping muslim brothers???
I think no one can give us bennifet or harm but ALLAH.
if we got harm from Afhgan refuges it was not because of them. it was mismangment by our govt.
what was the reason for 71 ?? afghans?? Afghan talibans???
it was because we had problems of leadership from the very begining of the nation.
after every problem you seem to critisize ummah. and until now we havent done any thing for ummah.
we cried Sab say pehly pakistan. and given Amreki's they way to kill thousand of muslims in afghanistan.
it is now days fashion to bash islam, mullah, and ummah.

What you are ranting is standard jamati propaganda and makes no sense at all..

I am a bit late commenting on this thread as things like these have been what I have argued the most on PDF lol

Well, I am very disappointed by the reaction of many of the members here.

As I'm not in a mood to get into any argument, I would just like to present my view.

First of all, as Muslims, we are obliged to follow Qur'an and Sunnah, all the other things comes later.

Lets see what Qur'an and Hadith commands ME:

“The Mu’minoon are but a single Brotherhood.” (The Holy Qur’an, 49:10)

“The Believers, men and women, are protectors one of another: they enjoin the ma`roof (all of Islam), and forbid the munkar (all that is evil; kufr): they observe regular prayers, pay Zakat, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.” (The Holy Qur’an, 9:71)

Muhammad (Salla Allahu `alaihi wa sallam) indicated in several Ahadith on unity and brotherhood as we can see in his (saaws) Farewell Sermon (khuTbat ul-wadaa`):

“All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood.”

Other Ahadith further elaborate on the concept of unity and brotherhood:

"A Muslim is the brother of another Muslim. He does not oppress him, nor does he leave him at the mercy of others." (Sahih Muslim Book 032, Number 6219)

The Prophet said, "None of you will have faith till he wishes for his (Muslim) brother what he likes for himself." (Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 1, Book 2, Number 12)

"And hold fast, all together, by the rope which God (stretches out for you), and be not divided among yourselves; and remember with gratitude God’s favor on you; for ye were enemies and He joined your hearts in love, so that by His Grace, ye became brethren;and ye were on the brink of the pit of Fire,and He saved you from it. Thus doth God make His Signs clear to you: That ye may be guided" (The Glorious Quran 3:103)

Volume 1, Book 8, Number 386: (Sahih Bukhari)

Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Allah’s Apostle said, “Whoever prays like us and faces our Qibla and eats our slaughtered animals is a Muslim and is under Allah’sand His Apostle’s protection. So do not betray Allah by betraying those who are in His protection.”

Now when I have been commanded by ALLAH and His Messanger [S.A.W], I need no excuse to question the concept of "Ummah". Even then, lets analyse, today, if we see, Nationalism is one of the biggest cause of collective downfall of Muslims, if you believe in nationalism, then you should also give rights to Punjabis, Balochis etc because to them and other ethnic groups (Some people) believe in their own nationalism. Likewise, Kurdistan, Pushtoonistan and there are many examples if you wanna justify Nationalism.

As far as Patriotism for ones motherland is concerned, it is a part of the Iman, love for the Homeland but Islam teaches us to be loyal to the homeland but in the boundaries, your "nationalism" as you call it should NOT be above any other Muslim group which is not of your nationality.

When we talk about Pakistan, Pakistan came into being believing in the ideology of Islam, why are forgetting our founding Fathers? Have we ever analysed what they left for us, Do I need to explain the concept of Pan-Islamism that Allama Iqbal presented?

Do you want me to quote Quaid e Azam on the Unity of Muslims? He was a frontline activist for the cause of Palestine.

Unity of Muslims is the need of the hour. Whether you agree with me or disagree, my devotion towards my other Muslim brothers and Sisters is not dependent on how they look at me, but how ALLAH will look at me from above.

"In taza khudaon mein bada sabsay watan hai; Jo pairahan iska hai, voh mazhab ka kafan hai (Of all the new false gods, the biggest is the motherland (watan); The garment of this idea is actually the death-shroud of religion)."

-Allama Iqbal

On 15 October 1937, in the course of his presidential address to the All-India Muslim League Session at Lucknow, Muhammad Ali Jinnah said:

“May I now turn and refer to the question of Palestine? It has moved the Mussalmans all over India most deeply. The whole policy of the British Government has been a betrayal of the Arabs, from its very inception. Fullest advantage has been taken of their trusting nature. Great Britain has dishonoured her proclamation to the Arabs, which had guaran-teed them complete independence for the Arab homelands and the formation of an Arab Confederation under the stress of the Great War. After having utilized them, by giving them false promises, they installed themselves as the Mandatory Power with that infamous Balfour Declaration, which was obviously irreconcilable and incapable of simultaneous execution. Then, having pursued the policy to find a national home for the Jews, Great Britain now proposes to partition Palestine, and the Royal Commission’s recommendation completes the tragedy. If given effect to, it must necessarily lead to the complete ruination and destruction of every legitimate aspiration of the Arabs in their homeland — and now we are asked to-look at the realities! But who created this situation? It has been the handiwork of and brought about sedulously by the British statesmen … I am sure I am speaking not only of the Mussalmans of India but of the world; and all sections of thinking and fair-minded people will agree, when I say that Great Britain will be digging its grave if she fails to honour her original proclamation, promises and intentions — pre war and even post-war — which were so unequivocally expressed to the Arabs and the world at large. I find that a very tense feeling of excitement has been created and the British Government, out of sheer desperation, are resorting to repressive measures, and ruthlessly dealing with the public opinion of the Arabs in Palestine. The Muslims of India will stand solid and will help the Arabs in every way they can in the brave and just struggle that they are carrying on against all odds.”



I choose to follow my ideals, starting from Prophet Muhammed [S.A.W], to our great leaders, Iqbal and Jinnah Period!

Even if we stick to these principals the others are clearly not which makes are net losers in the game..time to wake up!

 

[Xestan]

What you are ranting is standard jamati propaganda and makes no sense at all..



Even if we stick to these principals the others are clearly not which makes are net losers in the game..time to wake up!

Two different things. If you're just looking for benefit of your own country, even if some other Muslim country is being bombed the hell out by some Police State, you should then stop calling yourself Muslim, because Allah and His Messenger's instructions are very clear in this regard.

Pakistan's constitution states that Islam is above anything in this State and the sovereignty belongs to Allah alone, and the State has to follow every law of Qur'an. I'm just a citizen of this country and I will obey my constitution and my forefathers.

Irony is that today, we have people who are directly questioning Qur'an. Height of shame!

 

[NeutralCitizen]

The Ummah itself was much better in a spiritual concept then a physical one, however correct it has failed. This is for pakistan so here are some steps
1.All Pakistani's leave Saudi Arabia or the Gulf Countries
2.Cut Funding from the gulf
3. drop Islamic republic from Pakistan.
4. how exactly are you going to get an Ataturk ? if you want an Ataturk you should take that role and return to pakistan , if you feel strongly then do something then just speaking.

 

[laiqs@mi]

What you are ranting is standard jamati propaganda and makes no sense at all..



Even if we stick to these principals the others are clearly not which makes are net losers in the game..time to wake up!

would you please eleborate as i am not able to understand.
we are awake its time for you to wake up from your delusion

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Only 1 question u talk about EU type bloc,then why does 'brother' muslim countries not allow u to get citizenship,marry the local women or start ur own business?U get all these privilages from the 'infidels' in their lands.If they are conspiring against you why are u going there instead of building inter muslim state societies as per ummah concept.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Many people in this thread have made good points. Personally while I do believe that all Muslims are brothers & sisters, I still feel that we should concentrate on our homeland first & foremost, this does not mean that we have abandoned the Muslim "Ummah". We can still be part of the Muslim "Ummah" while respecting each other's differences & struggling for our own individual development.

Another thing is that I don't want my race, culture, language, heritage or homeland to be destroyed for the sake of Muslim unity. Neither does God command me to destroy or forget about either of those for Islam. I respect the differences present in all nations regardless of them being Muslims or Non-Muslims.

 

[DRaisinHerald]

Another thing is that I don't want my race, culture, language, heritage or homeland to be destroyed for the sake of Muslim unity. Neither does God command me to destroy or forget about either of those for Islam

Muslim Unity doesn't mean you destroy your own culture, language or heritage; as I mentioned back in the Pallywood thread. I don't know who gave you this idea.

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

Muslim Unity doesn't mean you destroy your own culture, language or heritage; as I mentioned back in the Pallywood thread. I don't know who gave you this idea.

Interaction with a variety of people has given me this idea, mostly by some of the Pakistanis that I have met. There are some Pakistanis that would gladly bend over for another person just because he or she is a Muslim. That makes me sick.