Time to abandon Ummah / brotherhood for greater good of the nation?

[The SC]

@ aryan-B

Come on mate S-19's hearts in the right place. He is usually on the side of the down trodden. Their are occasions when he goes of the rails but so do we all. I mean I have actually seen him unlike some to show here that he does debate and sometime he has changed his views. for example on the Turk Cypriot issue. So I welcome people disagreeing with me usually as long as it is respectful and rational. Either I convince them or they convince me or we agree to disagree. But important thing is we learn from each other. By the way the education dig was not meant at you and I agree and enjoy a lot of your posts

It is just that there are enough enemies of Islam to deal with, and we do not need self bashing, we accept self criticism with logic and intellectual thinking, not writing something for the sake of writing without basing it on facts.
These are serious matters we are discussing on this forum, and I personally won't talk or speculate about something I am not well versed in, or educated thoroughly about.
I did study most religions of the world, History, political science and many other fields as extra curriculum activities since my very early youth, and I have an education back round in Advanced sciences and engineering.
Nothing to brag about, I am still willing to learn and exchange information, since I am only impressed by GOD, the supreme Intelligence and the supreme being of all things, encompassing all things, omnipresent and omniscient.
I see and feel his work in every instant of my life and that is what I appreciate and enjoy in this life, I came to this state of mind through a long and arduous road of knowledge seeking.
And my conclusion, if it has any weight for others, will be that Islam is the most sublime religion, but to understand this you have to go on a tour and long journey through different corners of knowledge, exploring other cultures, other religions, other people and than come back to the original point and analyse it all with logic and rationality.

 

[regular]

Just wondering a thought..what has so called Islamic brotherhood / ummah really given us??

1. Terrorism, Talibans and Osama Bin Laden?
   
2. Turned us into a proxy battle ground of Shia vs Sunni?? Settling scores on a 1400 years old conflict?
   
3. Turning us into lap dog defenders of corrupt monarchies?? Not any different than IRGC in Syria??
   
4. Today we are trying to desperately re-write our history and erasing our own heritage to love the religion more than the prophets?
   
5. Seriously much of the terrorist and sectarian ailments of our societ can be traced back to pan-islamism and ummah obsessions..
   
6. Muslims countries which stayed away from brotherhood and ummah obsession have done remarkably well...point in case Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, etc!
   
7. Today none of these "brothers" are to be found to even condemn the severe security and stability crisis we are under. Not a word has been uttered against drone strikes. Not even a semblance of responsibility towards OBL...Pakistan has been abandoned by the very same Ummah it choose to defend vehemently..
   
8. its like waking up to reality...the so called Ataturk moment when he realized the very same Muslims were backstabbing them now...and he must have thought to hell with brotherhood and lets built the nation to stand on its own feet...I think what Pakistan needs today is a visionary like Ataturk!

I guess sir U might need Ataturk not us cuz we got Holy Quran and the Sunnah of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وسل&#1605.....And Alhamdolillah we are doing excellent in our fields.....

 

[lem34]

I am not wrong, other nations will always try to interfere in Pakistan to serve their own interests.

Yes you are. You are now trying to make it the norm that other nations interfere to the extent that these three countries do that is simply not true. We are to blame for them interfering is a new one to me from you

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

we are helping and we will help muslims when ever they need.
help does not mean just fight. we on moral grounds support Palestine, Kashmeer, we supported bosnia.....
I also mantioned that we have corrupt leaders who are main culprits bringing us in this condition.
i totaly do not blame others for our problems if we had strong leaders ship scensare people no one could harm us.
but in some part Americn's interference in our political system and others is damaging us.

It's good that you don't blame others; blaming others is pointless & is an excuse used by the weak to justify their failures. We must improve ourselves first before telling others to improve themselves. There are so many corrupt people in Pakistan ranging from the common public all the way to the government that it's not even funny.

I simply want my country to honor its roots & build Pakistani nationalism rather than being obsessed with the Muslim "Ummah". We should choose our own path & work for our own success exactly how other Muslims have done so.

Yes you are. You are now trying to make it the norm that other nations interfere to the extent that these three countries do that is simply not true. We are to blame for them interfering is a new one to me from you

No, I am not wrong. Your enemies will always try to destroy your country, it's the country that has to work & struggle for its own protection. I am not trying to make the interference of other nations the norm, so don't just make pointless accusations. I never denied that other people interfere in Pakistan's affairs, but it's us who have to manage ourselves. The Pakistani government bears the responsibility of stopping interference from foreigners, if our government messes up then that is our fault alone.

 

[lem34]

but in some part Americn's interference in our political system and others is damaging us.

Look at all the dictators or corrupt Muslim leaders that are supported by America. They all have their looted assets in america. Its a form of neo colonialism. Americans are complicit. But anyway on a thread about Ummah I would say that it exists probably on a people level but it does not and can not whilst we have leaders representing American and indirectly Israeli interests through AIPAC rather than the people whether that be Saudi or Pakistan

 

[The SC]

You seem to be very intolerant in your views. If you cannot tolerate other's views, why are you here on the forum? Why dn't you go hang out with your taliban buddies who would welcome you?

All I am saying is that your concept of pan-islamism is flawed. I advocate something like the EU and NATO where everyone preserves their own leadership, culture, traditions and individual norms yet becomes united in political/military front when it comes to dealing with outsiders. This, is the concept of "nationhood" advocated in the Koran, not your pan-Islamism crap where everybody from every country is forced to follow a backward Arab caliph. I already backed my stance with quranic evidences.




I would assume your parents have not taught you civilized manners. What I said is not incorrect, is it? You are living in Canada, a secular supposedly "infidel" country. Yet, you are using harsh language and coercing others to concede to your views. How much of a hypocrisy is that?

And you assuming I live in romania shows how desperate you are to throw insults.



Thanks mate, much appreciated.

See, this is what I call intolerance and bigotry. These people cannot tolerate opposing viewpoints at all and take them as a personal attack:

You and your parents have ignorant views and try to use Islam, what can I do about it.
I got a bad phone call lately from a Romanian I do not know, and some people are taking care of that, he might loose his life very easily here.

 

[King Solomon]

You and your parents have ignorant views and try to use Islam, what can I do about it.
I got a bad phone call lately from a Romanian I do not know, and some people are taking care of that, he might loose his life very easily here.

Everybody knows who is the ignorant here. Your likes deserve nothing more. Everytime i've tried to have a logical argument with you in the forum, you've resorted to personal attacks and proved yourself to be an intolerant and bigoted extremist who would better be suited to taliban environment. Anybody disagreeing with you is an infidel "joooo", as you have labelled me several times in the topic.

I'd advise you to first mend yourself: leave your infidel Canada and go to Afghanistan before preaching your utterly hypocritical pan-islamism ideology. You don't know the worth of something until you lose it.

 

[laiqs@mi]

.

I simply want my country to honor its roots & build Pakistani nationalism rather than being obsessed with the Muslim "Ummah". We should choose our own path & work for our own success exactly how other Muslims have done so.


.

but i follow Quran instead of my assumptions.
Quran says
[And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise] (At-Tawbah 9:71).

we can do every thing staying with Ummah. we should we must support every muslim right or wrong. (if right then ok but if wrong we must stop him from doing wrong) in any condition. i (every muslim) feel the pain when jews kill palestine people. when amercians bomb marriage ceremonies, when Indians kill inocent kashmeri's. dont you?? and i think it is the pain of ummah.

 

[somebozo]

I guess sir U might need Ataturk not us cuz we got Holy Quran and the Sunnah of Rasool Allah (صلى الله عليه وسل&#1605.....And Alhamdolillah we are doing excellent in our fields.....

This blinding attitude is what taking the Pakistan down...as long as we have the book we are doing fine..not to mention tens are dying by drone attacks each weeks for crimes they did not commit...just because one dumb f_ck ummah lover decided to seek refugee in their land and teach them some lessons in brotherhood.

 

[Hello_10]

Just wondering a thought..what has so called Islamic brotherhood / ummah really given us??

1. Terrorism, Talibans and Osama Bin Laden?
   
2. Turned us into a proxy battle ground of Shia vs Sunni?? Settling scores on a 1400 years old conflict?
   
3. Turning us into lap dog defenders of corrupt monarchies?? Not any different than IRGC in Syria??
   
4. Today we are trying to desperately re-write our history and erasing our own heritage to love the religion more than the prophets?
   
5. Seriously much of the terrorist and sectarian ailments of our societ can be traced back to pan-islamism and ummah obsessions..
   
6. Muslims countries which stayed away from brotherhood and ummah obsession have done remarkably well...point in case Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, etc!
   
7. Today none of these "brothers" are to be found to even condemn the severe security and stability crisis we are under. Not a word has been uttered against drone strikes. Not even a semblance of responsibility towards OBL...Pakistan has been abandoned by the very same Ummah it choose to defend vehemently..
   
8. its like waking up to reality...the so called Ataturk moment when he realized the very same Muslims were backstabbing them now...and he must have thought to hell with brotherhood and lets built the nation to stand on its own feet...I think what Pakistan needs today is a visionary like Ataturk!

you guys have to remember just one thing, that is, "you all are only Pakistanis and want to build Pakistan, your nation/ your motherland." very first identity of you is being Pakistanis and then the rest also come and you proud on yourself and determined to see your nation on top, with a combined effort from all the Pakistanis, as a nation.

you can't achieve the same if you first categorize yourself as Baloch, Punjabi, Shia, Sunni, Sindhi, Mohajir, Pashtun, Ahmadi bla bla. the very first thing is being a Pakistani and then the rest and every good/ honesty of you people is to make your nation, the very first priority and then the rest also come

 

[somebozo]

but i follow Quran instead of my assumptions.
Quran says
[And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise] (At-Tawbah 9:71).

we can do every thing staying with Ummah. we should we must support every muslim right or wrong. (if right then ok but if wrong we must stop him from doing wrong) in any condition. i (every muslim) feel the pain when jews kill palestine people. when amercians bomb marriage ceremonies, when Indians kill inocent kashmeri's. dont you?? and i think it is the pain of ummah.

Even if he is a criminal or terrorist??

Your kind of jamatis are directly responsible for the suffering of Pakistan and its people today...

Eliminate Jamatis and you free up an entire nation from mental slavery..the very same principle Ataturk had to adapt..the place of religion is mosque..not parliament...there is not such thing as ummah...it is a medieval concept used to create ruled and ruling class..Instead of taking the theka of every Muslims..we should concentrate properly on our own country men and that is simply enough...why don't you question the other nations regarding their brotherhood, especially those who are front line states of ummah ideology propagation and some of them happens to be too oil rich as well...

 

[p(-)0ENiX]

but i follow Quran instead of my assumptions.
Quran says
[And the believers, men and women, are protecting friends one of another; they enjoin the right and forbid the wrong, and they establish worship and they pay the poor-due, and they obey Allah and His messenger. As for these, Allah will have mercy on them. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise] (At-Tawbah 9:71).

we can do every thing staying with Ummah. we should we must support every muslim right or wrong. (if right then ok but if wrong we must stop him from doing wrong) in any condition. i (every muslim) feel the pain when jews kill palestine people. when amercians bomb marriage ceremonies, when Indians kill inocent kashmeri's. dont you?? and i think it is the pain of ummah.

You are misinterpreting what I wrote. Muslims are of course brothers & sisters & they should support each other. However some Pakistanis are willing to sell their souls for those that don't about them. Many Pakistanis will let their heritages get destroyed just for the sake of unity. I want Pakistan to honor its roots while at the same time follow Islam as well. Pakistan must first & foremost work for its own progress rather than cry rivers of blood & tears for others. I do feel the pain of innocent Muslims that are killed for pointless reasons however not all conflicts relate to or arise from religion.

By the way, very few people or Muslims from foreign nations care about what happens to Pakistan. Most of them may claim to care if you ask them because they don't want to offend you, but in reality they don't give a crap about Pakistan. Most people work for the progress of their own countries & aren't obsessed with others simply because they follow the same religion.

 

[somebozo]

you guys have to remember just one thing, that is, "you all are only Pakistanis and want to build Pakistan, your nation/ your motherland." very first identity of you is being Pakistanis and then the rest also come and you proud on yourself and determined to see your nation on top, with a combined efforts from all the Pakistanis, as a nation.

you can't achieve the same if you first categorize yourself as Baloch, Punjabi, Shia, Sunni, Sindhi, Mohajir, Pashtun, Ahmadi bla bla. the very first thing is being Pakistani and then the rest and every good/ honesty of you people is to make your nation, the very first priority and then the rest also come

Our retarded education system teaches that we are Muslims first and then everything else - not much different than the commies...much of this Ummah ideology was a direct uplift from commies...and they funded it well too. Just look how the ummah believers were all commies in closets..starting with Bhutto, Saddam, Ghaddafi, Bashar, etc etc.....

 

[The SC]

Everybody knows who is the ignorant here. Your likes deserve nothing more. Everytime i've tried to have a logical argument with you in the forum, you've resorted to personal attacks and proved yourself to be an intolerant and bigoted extremist who would better be suited to taliban environment. Anybody disagreeing with you is an infidel "joooo", as you have labelled me several times in the topic.

I'd advise you to first mend yourself: leave your infidel Canada and go to Afghanistan before preaching your utterly hypocritical pan-islamism ideology. You don't know the worth of something until you lose it.

And that is you, ask the forum.
I can feel you bad feelings till here, and you can have Canada if you want, the only thing is that they have very severe laws for acceptance.
And what Roumanians like you are known for in Europe?
I knew some good guys but you must be from the wrong side, and believe me, you might loose everything by your mouth.
The Ummah is all over the place!

 

[OrionHunter]

Well said! You've stepped into troubled waters though!

I have seen several posts on PDF where Pakistanis were given a choice to prioritize whether to defend Islam or Pakistan first. Most Pakistani posters said they will first defend Islam and the Ummah and then only Pakistan!

Now that sucks! How do these worthies intend to 'defend' Islam? So, let's say if Islam is in danger in Saudi Arabia, will they run there with unsheathed swords to behead unseen 'infidels' when Pakistan is under physical attack from an adversary?

So much for so called 'Patriotism' of many Pakistanis! For them its religion and the Muslim Ummah first, always and every time. The country comes next.

I thought it should be the other way around?