The Submarine Race in the Malaccan Strait

[jhungary]

Me me me, let me answer this:

[夫對遠人頌述朝廷，或稱天朝(China)，或稱中國(China)，乃一定之理。]

--清高宗實錄 卷784

[大清國(China*)遣大臣與鄂羅斯國議定邊界之碑：一，將由北流入黑龍江之綽爾納，即烏倫穆河，相近格爾必齊河為界。循此河上流不毛之地，有石大興安以至於海。凡山南一帶，流入黑龍江之溪河，盡屬中國(China)。山北一帶之溪河，盡屬鄂羅斯。一，將流入黑龍江之額爾古納河為界，河之南岸屬於中國(China)，河之北岸屬於鄂羅斯...]

--Treaty of Nerchinsk

*Obviously they put a = between 大清國 & 中國.

Well, it's been almost 16 years since i have pick up a Chinese History text book........

First of all, we should put 2 two into seperate bin, 中國 and China

中國 - is a word that existed 3000 years ago, the every first reference to 中國 as a name is from 尚書

[中國”一詞最早出現於東周時期成書的《尚書》和《詩經》等書中。《尚書.梓材》是周公教導他的弟弟康叔如何治理殷商故地的訓告之詞。其中“皇天既付中國民越厥疆土於先王”，意即皇天將中國的土地與人民交給周的先王治理]

The time is about 221 BC, the word was common amongst citizen of differnet dynasty refer their land as 中國.

However, almost all the dynasty did not use 中國 as their land name, instead dynasty have their own naming system for their border and city, usually is the name of the dynasty + the naming of the emperor.

ä¸*國評論新聞：“ä¸*國”一詞來龍去脈：最早出現於東周成書

The official uses of 中國 started in late Qing dynasty where the 大清/滿清. Where they refer to themselves in a place called 中國, 滿清皇朝 uses the offical name for their dynasty 大清帝國. In late Qing period, it started to change into 中華大清國, they will still use 中國 as some sort of reference and probably in the same meaning of 清帝國, but the official banner still use 大清帝國.

“中國”成為具有近代國家概念的正式名稱，始於“中華民國”，是它的簡稱，英文為CHINA；現在也是“中華人民共和國”的簡稱

ä¸*國評論新聞：“ä¸*國”一詞來龍去脈：最早出現於東周成書

It was started officially 中國 after 中華民國.

Then we move on the word China, many people mistaken, even Chinese and think China = 中國. China refer to 中國 this is true but by no mean the word means 中國. China means 支那 in Chinese.

古希腊人通过印度而认识中国，因而欧洲各语言中如“China”、“Sina”对中国的称呼也是源自梵语这一词。在俄羅斯，不少俄羅斯人也稱呼中國為“Шина”， 俄文Шина就有中國或支那的含義

支那 (梵語) - 维基百科，自由的百科全书

Don't ask me to go back to the Chinese History text book.......

 

[EastSea]

Silly head *Pet pet pet*,
The title of the map is 皇朝直省地輿全圖, which means "The full map of the 直省s of China" in English, not the so-called "full map of China". Most importantly, I am not even debating about the ownership of those island.
Now who is lying ad who is the silly head, hrr~?

What does 皇朝 mean ? Nothing change the nature of this map. Islands didn't belong any province of China under direct control of China emperor.

Liar dont try lie.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

We have challenged China for a long time now. Isn't Arunachal Pradesh still an integral part of India inspite of China's best efforts. NE India is quite stable compared to majority of Western areas of Pakistan. Some minor irritants are easily managed.

Its more like China hasnt tried. As She is not interested in internal matters of SA.

Western Pak is not safe as compared to NE in India, well u keep reminding yourself that.

 

[Snomannen]

What does 皇朝 mean ? Nothing change the nature of this map. Islands didn't belong any province of China under direct control of China emperor.

Liar dont try lie.

Are you really that stupid?

A: "This map is an ancient full map of China."

B: "No, this is an ancient full map of the 直省s of China, not full map of China."

Stupid C : "You liar blah blah islands belong to glorious Vietnam blah blah what does 皇朝 mean blah blah..."

B: "wtf??"

 

[Snomannen]

Well, it's been almost 16 years since i have pick up a Chinese History text book........

First of all, we should put 2 two into seperate bin, 中國 and China

中國 - is a word that existed 3000 years ago, the every first reference to 中國 as a name is from 尚書



The time is about 221 BC, the word was common amongst citizen of differnet dynasty refer their land as 中國.

However, almost all the dynasty did not use 中國 as their land name, instead dynasty have their own naming system for their border and city, usually is the name of the dynasty + the naming of the emperor.

ä¸*國評論新聞：“ä¸*國”一詞來龍去脈：最早出現於東周成書

The official uses of 中國 started in late Qing dynasty where the 大清/滿清. Where they refer to themselves in a place called 中國, 滿清皇朝 uses the offical name for their dynasty 大清帝國. In late Qing period, it started to change into 中華大清國, they will still use 中國 as some sort of reference and probably in the same meaning of 清帝國, but the official banner still use 大清帝國.

ä¸*國評論新聞：“ä¸*國”一詞來龍去脈：最早出現於東周成書

It was started officially 中國 after 中華民國.

Then we move on the word China, many people mistaken, even Chinese and think China = 中國. China refer to 中國 this is true but by no mean the word means 中國. China means 支那 in Chinese.



支那 (梵èª&#382 - 维基百科，自由的百科全书

Don't ask me to go back to the Chinese History text book.......

Yes yes, this^ is exactly what I am trying to say.

Qing dynasty is the first Chinese dynasty that use the term 中國 to represent the whole Empire, the "whole China". Back to the period of the three Kingdoms and Song／Jing Dynasty. Only the region of 魏 and 金 are "中國".

Most importantly, as you and I have mentioned above, China can not directly translated to 中國 and 中國 can not directly translated to China in Chinese history, since there are many other meanings of 中國 and the meanings have been changing for thousands year.

In addition, according to the other theaty the Treaty of Nanjing, 清朝皇帝 and 清朝are translated to "Emperor of China" and "China", not the "Emperor of Qing" and "Qing".

Moreover, there was a conversion in Qing Dynasty, they called and introduced themselves 中國 in foreign affairs but 大清 in internal affairs.

In other word, in Qing dynasty, 中國, 大清, China did share the same meanings and influence in documents.
也就是說，清朝和中國的意思相互通，清朝＝中國，中國＝清朝，中國一詞係清朝基本上同民國一樣有代表整個國家的法律地位，同時外國人也同樣認為China同中國／大清都係一回事, therefore Qing Dynasty did officially call their land China.

 

[BDforever]

South China sea belongs to bangladesh, now all come back to the thread topic

 

[EastSea]

Thats actually a long time tradition practiced by India, as shown by its forced incorporation of the princely state of Kashmir, Hyderabad and Manipur and then Goa, Daman and Diu into India.

China never mae up arbitrary claims to other peoples lands. The Republic of China (Taiwan) claimed and occupied the Spratly islands before Vietnam and the Philippines were independent countries. The Spratly Islands were disputed between France and the Republic of China in the 1930s. Japan invaded the islands and after the Japanese were defeated, the Republic of China was designated to receive the Japanese surrenders in the Spratlys. The Republic of China then established garrisons on the islands before Vietnam was even an independent country. The Republic of China (Taiwan) has the oldest military presence and claims on the islands.

It is the Philipines which is first making BS claims out of thin air and Vietnam's claims are inherited from France.

Taiwan claims south Tibet, the Paracel and Spratly islands and Diaoyu (senkaku islands). We do not recognize the Japanese, Vietnamese, Filipino and Indian occupation of our territory.

Spratly Islands (reefs, South China Sea) -- Encyclopedia Britannica

Vietnam Joins the World - Google Books

Where in the World is the Philippines?: Debating Its National Territory - Rodolfo Severino - Google Books

The Law of the Sea and Northeast Asia: A Challenge for Cooperation - Hmi-gwOn Pak - Google Books

All of mainland China's territorial claims were inherited from the Republic of China (Taiwan), which is why we both reject Indian occupation, and have you wondered why Taiwan has never cooperated for a single second with Vietnam or the Philippines on the south China sea? Our position against them is the most hostile one after mainland China.

Are you really that stupid?

A: "This map is an ancient full map of China."

B: "No, this is an ancient full map of the 直省s of China, not full map of China."

Stupid C : "You liar blah blah islands belong to glorious Vietnam blah blah what does 皇朝 mean blah blah..."

B: "wtf??"

South China sea belongs to bangladesh, now all come back to the thread topic

Read again the post I quoted above, who troll about Islands in this thread first ?

 

[BDforever]

Read again the post I quoted above, who troll about Islands in this thread first ?

it does not matter to me, i said to all to talk on topic

 

[EastSea]

it does not matter to me, i said to all to talk on topic

Yes, Bangladesh can also use your subs to control the strait, you have good position to do it, but you dont claim our islands.

 

[BDforever]

Yes, Bangladesh can also use your subs to control the strait, you have good position to do it, but you dont claim our islands.

i was just kidding that time

 

[Snomannen]

i was just kidding that time

No, seriously, take them all please.

 

[EastSea]

i was just kidding that time

Yes, I known.

 

[Viet]

No, seriously, take them all please.

I wonder why you are so generous, not like a typical Chinese...you are expected to be more greedy. Any relatives in Vietnam?

 

[Snomannen]

I wonder why you are so generous, not like a typical Chinese...you are expected to be more greedy. Any relatives in Vietnam?

Nope, my ancestors were Northerners. My whole family has nothing related to any bloodline from the South although I was born and living in the south of China. Not to mention relatives in Vietnam.

And Ja, I am greedy as hell. I always wish to see a "bigger", more powerful China. I do wish that China take "back" all those islands and make its neighbors bow down to its freaking authority. Therefore, if China and Vietnam can't take those islands, why don't give them to those countries which really need the resource from them.

Speaking of Vietnam, I pretty like the spirit of this lil'chili. But I really hate the language (especially its writing system) as well as Cantonese.

 

[Wholegrain]

@jhungary

The Qing even translated Zhongguo as "Dulimbai Gurun" (Zhongguo in Manchu) for the Manchu version of the Treaty of Nerchinsk. This was translated into Latin and Russian as "China", and clearly referred to the territories of the Qing empire.