The PAF is set to receive a batch of Egyptian Air Force Mirage-Vs

[Trango Towers]

APG 83 on Viper is a mate from F-35 and F-22.

Mate but not same class I think. Ok...bro no point arguing. I just think we should stick to our own and not be sanctions prone again

 

[M.Kamran_Pak]

Sir no offence intended, just Kindly do some background research about the Mil Projects before coming to conclusions regarding any Wpn Platform. It’s a different world altogether than just black and white. For your information and for other new comers here on PDF, Thunder was planned to have Thales RC-400 Radars, Electronics, EW Pods & Targeting Pods(Damocles), MICA missiles etc under a 1.6 Bn USD Deal with the French which was being negotiated since 05-06. Talks collapsed due to Mr Zardari,Your current Finance Wizard(Dr Hafeez)! and the French Themselves who walked away when they couldn’t see any big Financial incentive coming their way and of course the Indian Gajjar for Rafale!
Imagine the beast Thunder would have been With all the reliable and lethal French Systems, subsystems and weapons.

https://www.dawn.com/news/1250549


Chengdu 1999-2000 PAF had verbatim commitment by the French to provide Engines for the Thunder aka Super 7 Project. When French Backed out, a lot of sleepless nights were spent on figuring out the next course of Action. Fortunate for the project Ruskies came via the Chinese.

Thanks for providing detailed info, however there are few things which I don't understand;
(1) Super 7 was another project on which Grumman was hired as consultant but 1989 infamous tiananmen square protests every US and Western consultant pulled off.
(2) Sabre II was a project on which Grumman was hired as consultant and Grumman concluded that project was not financially viable so PAF scraped it.
(3) There was another project namely Project-33, A Russian design to compete with F-16 (single engine), due to financial issues and Russian Air force not comfortable with single engine, it never went beyond blue print, later on Chinese in 1998 purchased design, research and test data from Mikhoyan Bureau.
After sanctions Fighter China project was launch in 1991. Now in 1995 PAC and CAC signed MoU for join development and in same year Mikhoyan joined the project for "design support".
Now point to note here is that in 1995 Pakistan was in talks with Western country (France) for Avionics, radar, targeting pods, night capabilities. PAF was on good terms with these French companies due to ROSE-1 2 3 upgrades and had experience.
But in 1998 after Nuclear tests sanctions were imposed so almost every Western country pulled off.
Also about engines, before 1989 tiananmen square protests Pratt & Whitney Pratt offered three engine options; Rolls Royce also offered engine options.
Can you clear confusion that
(1) JF-17 is evaluation of all above projects?
(2) In 1995 PAC /CAC signed MoU for joint production of fighter aircraft. In 1998 after Nuclear tests sanctions were put on Pakistan.
So after 1998 Pakistan was not in position to plan any Western systems, engines which were susceptible to any sanctions so earlier in 1995 French systems envisioned for JF never saw the light of day.
(3) In 2001 PAC/CAC separated the development of Avionics with airframe, so it is indication that Pakistan has fully realized the sanction prove Western systems and started looking elsewhere but to make sure project is delivered on time Pakistan separated the airframe development from Avionics.

 

[Deltadart]

Sold already to various South American countries; those were far ahead of what you purchased from EA.

http://www.denelaviation.co.za/album/Cheetah/24

Yes ofcourse, it wouldn't be the first time PAF missed the boat. Ideally they should have gone for the local production of cheetas, in addition to upgrading all the mirages in our service. But obviously that's not what they wanted.

 

[SABRE]

nothing better than J 10 for 4.5 gen class considering politics of the region.
J10 C is even better than f 16 70 because we will need US weapons along with that plane

I might be wrong as I have not been following this thread but the reason for purchasing Egyptian Mirages could be for filling the gap created by discontinuation of JF-17 Block II production in favour of upcoming JF-17 Block III. If that is the case then buying J-10 might not be an idol thing to do. Better to stick with affordable and disposable (in near future) assets. J-10 would require setting up a whole new long term structure in place. BUT, regardless of our future trajectory - whether we buy F-16s, Eurofighters, Sukhois, OR NOT - two squadrons of J-10 or ~36 units of the aircraft might not be a bad idea.

 

[denel]

Yes ofcourse, it wouldn't be the first time PAF missed the boat. Ideally they should have gone for the local production of cheetas, in addition to upgrading all the mirages in our service. But obviously that's not what they wanted.

Correct; they could have brought over all the manufacturing jigs etc. Very very shortsightedness

 

[Deltadart]

Correct; they could have brought over all the manufacturing jigs etc. Very very shortsightedness

Irony is that they are stuck with these fine planes, (not by PAF standards) for the foreseeable future.

 

[denel]

Irony is that they are stuck with these fine planes, (not by PAF standards) for the foreseeable future.

correct; never too late still

 

[Tipu7]

Reminder.

Mirage Horus deal with Egypt is still in discussions phase. It's YET TO finalize.

 

[NA71]

nothing better than J 10 for 4.5 gen class considering politics of the region.
J10 C is even better than f 16 70 because we will need US weapons along with that plane

After so many calculations and analysis, the all equations...resulted in the same answer "J10C"......

 

[kursed]

J10C will not be bought since it brings to PAF inventory a third type of data-link. Unfeasible to use it as an individual shooter and not part of the overall PAF strategy of using systems.

 

[NA71]

J10C will not be bought since it brings to PAF inventory a third type of data-link. Unfeasible to use it as an individual shooter and not part of the overall PAF strategy of using systems.

Agreed, but the fast emerging situation has forced our planners to think "otherwise".....as best alternate & quick solution.....wait....

 

[SABRE]

After so many calculations and analysis, the all equations...resulted in the same answer "J10C"......

Well, it's sitting right there, or dangling, in front of us at all times. Calling us in a whispery voice, "Hey man ... psst ... come over here" like a drug dealer trying to sell us drugs & then we have a defeatist attitude of "if nothing else there is always J-10C, it's sitting right there."

 

[NA71]

fantastic analogy ....yes ....we will land in Js....finally and will start praising it as a "Highly Formidable Bird" ...leading all our parades........

If that is going to happen...why have we wasted so much time?.....they should have been on our FOBs now.

 

[FOOLS_NIGHTMARE]

PAF had love affair with three aircrafts in its history,first the Sabres,second the Mirages and third the F16s. It always started of with newer models initially and than kept on buying every remnant from every possible country it could muster. This love affair or addiction has paid off PAF handsomely ,as it had mastered these aircrafts to the ultimate. The only snag i found out with this addiction was that it had deprived many generations of enthusiasts with the sight of latest aircrafts.

 

[Ark_Angel]

Thanks for providing detailed info, however there are few things which I don't understand;
(1) Super 7 was another project on which Grumman was hired as consultant but 1989 infamous tiananmen square protests every US and Western consultant pulled off.
(2) Sabre II was a project on which Grumman was hired as consultant and Grumman concluded that project was not financially viable so PAF scraped it.
(3) There was another project namely Project-33, A Russian design to compete with F-16 (single engine), due to financial issues and Russian Air force not comfortable with single engine, it never went beyond blue print, later on Chinese in 1998 purchased design, research and test data from Mikhoyan Bureau.
After sanctions Fighter China project was launch in 1991. Now in 1995 PAC and CAC signed MoU for join development and in same year Mikhoyan joined the project for "design support".
Now point to note here is that in 1995 Pakistan was in talks with Western country (France) for Avionics, radar, targeting pods, night capabilities. PAF was on good terms with these French companies due to ROSE-1 2 3 upgrades and had experience.
But in 1998 after Nuclear tests sanctions were imposed so almost every Western country pulled off.
Also about engines, before 1989 tiananmen square protests Pratt & Whitney Pratt offered three engine options; Rolls Royce also offered engine options.
Can you clear confusion that
(1) JF-17 is evaluation of all above projects?
(2) In 1995 PAC /CAC signed MoU for joint production of fighter aircraft. In 1998 after Nuclear tests sanctions were put on Pakistan.
So after 1998 Pakistan was not in position to plan any Western systems, engines which were susceptible to any sanctions so earlier in 1995 French systems envisioned for JF never saw the light of day.
(3) In 2001 PAC/CAC separated the development of Avionics with airframe, so it is indication that Pakistan has fully realized the sanction prove Western systems and started looking elsewhere but to make sure project is delivered on time Pakistan separated the airframe development from Avionics.

Super 7 evolved into JF-17. Project even till late 90s-2000 was known As Super-7 project. All the Engineers and PAF personnel deputed to Chengdu initially pre 2002 we’re deputed to Project Super 7. It was later redesignated as JF-17. French has committed to the project as far as the Engine was concerned. PAF and Pakistan had a very special relationship with France till 05. French worship $$$$ as long as one is willing to pay. Stereotyping aside that’s what the project had envisaged till 2001. Rest of the details have already been shared above.