the myth of punjab domination

[Kabira]

Yup. They are landowners rather than economic migrants. I had doubts due to ghoul's claims but its cleared after checking 1901 gazetter of attock. I have little information about attock but i have very good info about mianwali as i have frequently visited it, kalabagh , isa khel town and chasma are picnic spots for us marwats. Isa khel people also frequently visit lakki ..

Landowner generarly mean old habitant and not economic migrant in recent times. In older times fertile land was most precios, so wars were fought over it.

 

[Samandri]

@ghoul you claimed there is no or very small presence of niazis east of indus. The fact is, very large population of niazis live east of indus with famous villages/towns in their possession like, Daud khel, Rohkari, Musa khel, Pai khel, shahbaz khel, watta khel, yaru khel, moch, swans, bori khel, data khel, aba khel, khawas khel, sumbal etc. Its explains why Niazis win seats from this region along with isa khel.
here is the map to help you

Its piplan tehsil which is not influenced by niazis, while isa khel and mianwali tehsils are politically and socio-economically dominated by niazis

 

[ghoul]

Att

Yup. They are landowners rather than economic migrants. I had doubts due to ghoul's claims but its cleared after checking 1901 gazetter of attock. I have little information about attock but i have very good info about mianwali as i have frequently visited it, kalabagh , isa khel town and chasma are picnic spots for us marwats. Isa khel people also frequently visit lakki .


I will check it but whatever villages are in the possession of pathans/pashtuns in chach, they have wrested it from awans through wars. It shouldnt surprise you, 18th century was the end of mughal empire's presence in attock which prevented any settlement/occupation of areas east of indus by pashtuns. 18th century is also marked by rise of afghan empire, thats why sarhang niazis established themeselves east of indus in 18th century. Jadoons, tareens, mashwanis etc also entered into hazara in 18th century.

. The Pathan population mentioned in gazetteers is that of khattaks of makhad, who live on the banks of Indus and speak potohari I think. Chachis moved in later. They might have moved with durrani maybe. And it isn't easy beating awans in attock.

@ghoul you claimed there is no or very small presence of niazis east of indus. The fact is, very large population of niazis live east of indus with famous villages/towns in their possession like, Daud khel, Rohkari, Musa khel, Pai khel, shahbaz khel, watta khel, yaru khel, moch, swans, bori khel, data khel, aba khel, khawas khel, sumbal etc. Its explains why Niazis win seats from this region along with isa khel.
here is the map to help you
View attachment 83538
Its piplan tehsil which is not influenced by niazis, while isa khel and mianwali tehsils are politically and socio-economically dominated by niazis

Musa khel is an awan dominates region along with wan bacharran. Niazis dominate isa khel tehsil. In mianwali every clan uses "khel" as a clan name including jatts hence the name khel is not a good indicator. The whole salt range region of mianwali is awan dominated.

 

[Kabira]

Niazis are most dominant in Mianwali by far. Attock is different, there is also big old pashtun comunity but pashtuns are not as dominant there as in Mianwali. I would say Attock is extension of Hazara region in KPK.

Inhabitants of Attock District speak a great variety of Punjabi dialects: which are

• Chhachi (Northern parts of district mainly in Attock tehsil)
• Ghebi (Western parts of district in Fateh Jang and Pindigheb tehsil)
• Majhi or standard (Sizeable population in cities)
• Jandali (Jand Tehsil Southern border areas with Mianwali)
• Pothohari (Easteren border areas)
• Hindko Tehsil Attock, Fateh Jang, Jand & Hassan Abdal

Other Languages include:

• Pashto which is also spoken by sizeable population in the KPK province border areas and in the cities.

• Urdu is mother tongue of few people but being national language is spoken and understood by the sizeable population.

• English is also understood and spoken by the educated elite."

In case of Mianwali

Inhabitants of Mianwali district speak a great variety of Punjabi dialects.

• Jandali/Rohi (central parts of the district)
• Awankari (northern parts)
• Shapuri (easteren parts)
• Thalochi (southern parts in desert areas)
• Majhi or standard (sizeable population in cities)

Other languages include:

• Pashto which is spoken by sizeable population in the Khyber Pakhtookhawa province border areas and in the cities.
• Urdu is mother tongue of few people but being national language is spoken and understood by the sizeable population.
• English is understood and spoken by few, mainly educated elite.

 

[Kabira]

Mianwalians Refused to be Included in the Proposed Saraiki Province

The Commission constituted to make recommendations regarding carving out a new Saraiki province namely Bahawalpur Janobi Punjab (BJP) out of the exiting province of Punjab has made a proposal to include Mianwali in the proposed province.

The Proposal is simply laughable. If we take a charitable view, the initiators of the proposal have no touch what-so-ever with ground realities. Many voices have been vociferously raised from mianwali against the proposal. A Mianwali Bachao Tehrik has been formed headed by Sardar Nasrullah Khan President of District Bars with its memners from various walk of life and had three day boycot of courts beside complete shutter down strike in district and four hour sit-in(dharna) at Ikram Shaheed Chowk Mianwali to mark their resentment against proposal. It, however, seems necessary to put things in proper perspective.

Firstly, Mianwali can by no stretch of imagination be considered part of the saraiki belt and hindko not saraiki is the language of Mianwali. Similarity between the two languages may be discernable but that is not to say that people of Mianwali speak saraiki and is thus part of saraiki belt.


If one goes by similarities in languages, people belonging to central and northern Punjab speak punjabi and pothwori respectively. But both the languages clearly have stamp of their respective regions, their but similarity notwithstanding. A particular language transplanted in a different environment trends to take different hues. The english spoken in the U.S, Australia and Newzeland is noticeably distinct from the one spoken in Britain. Even the language spoken in Britain under –goes minor changes in different parts of that country, for a slight change in dialect takes place every where after about 5 miles. For example, the language from the dialect of punjabi by a person speaks, one can always tell whether he belongs to the walled city of Lahore or outsides it. Dialect changes of the same language can be to such an extent that a yousafzai from northern KPK might find it difficult to understand the language of a burki tribesman from South Waziristan.

Likewise, the dialects spoken in southern punjab and Mianwali are very different. Their temperaments are reflective of the temperament of the people living in these areas. The saraiki of the deep south is very sweet and courtly.On the other hand, the hindko of Mianwali has a clear stamp of the proud and combative people here. That is not all. Northern part of Mianwali district has a sizeable Pashto-speaking population and there is a significant percentage of Pashto and Hindko speaking people who can speak both the languages.

Secondly, Mianwali was Kachhi Tehsil of Bannu District until the beginning of the 20thCentury. The temparament of Mianwali people has considerable similarities with those belonging to KPK. It may be for that reason and for considerations of ethnicity that late Khan Abdul Ghaffar Khan and his sucessors have been clamouring for inclusion of Mianwali in Pakhtunistan of their conception. It appears that the proposal to include

Mianwali in the proposed province has been motivated by a desire to prove that saraiki belt encompasses a very large area. It seems difficult to say whose claim is closer to reality.

Thirdly, having been part of Punjab for over a century and interacting with other people in this province makes people of Mianwali content with their present constitutional status.

It is, however, a different matter that educational and other facilities available in this unfortunate district are in no way at par with those available in the developed parts of Punjab. Resultantly, young men of Mianwali are usually at a disadvantage to compete with those belonging to other districts in the matter of jobs and other avenues of life.

There is a crying need to reserve quotas for Mianwali on the pattern of rural / urban quotas in Sindh. The people of Mianwali must agitate to achieve this goal. Mianwali is a very backward area. It cannot afford to be pushed into further backwardness by becoming part of sariki Province. The recent establishment of Danish School in Mianwali which was inaugurated on the 7thof February, 2013, has been a positive step but this is far from being sufficient. There is a need for many high quality educational institutions in Mianwali.

Mianwali is rich in minerals and is endowed with rich soil and sufficient water resources. It requires concerted effort on the part of government to harness these resources to Mianwali’s benefit as that of Pakistan. Another injustice perpetrated on the youth of Mianwali is that those graduating from Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan’s Technical Institute at Chah Miana and other such institutes find avenues of employment blocked. Even the Chashma Nuclear Power Plant which carries alleged dangers of radiations for local population does not offers to the Mianwali youth their due share of jobs. Joblessness leads them to unlawful and dangerous activities.

Fourthly, Mianwali is located at 4:30 driving hours distance from Lahore and less than three hours from Islamabad. On the other hand, Mianwali is at a driving distance of ten hours from Bahawalpur. Who in his right mind can even think of becoming part of the proposed sariki province? Who would agree to fore go the advantage of access to the Lahore city of famous colleges and historical heritage and the beautiful Islamabad perched in the lap of lofty mountains for the deserts of Bahawalpur.

The people of Mianwali have nothing but goodwil for the sariki belt. They also wish that the original position of Bahawalpur may be restored. We are, however, not too dis-satisfied with our present constitutional status. We would want to continue benefiting from the fountains of learning currently available to us.


In the end, we hope that this dangerous proposal dies it natural death. But if it somehow gains momentum, we would strongly demand that thisharmful proposal should be put to a referendum, there is no doubt that the people of Mianwali will give a resounding negative verdict. The respectable members of the Commission are requested to leave us alone.

Articles at Mianwali Online

I believed that Niazis were supporters of Seraiki suba, maybe thats not the case.

@ghoul you claimed there is no or very small presence of niazis east of indus. The fact is, very large population of niazis live east of indus with famous villages/towns in their possession like, Daud khel, Rohkari, Musa khel, Pai khel, shahbaz khel, watta khel, yaru khel, moch, swans, bori khel, data khel, aba khel, khawas khel, sumbal etc. Its explains why Niazis win seats from this region along with isa khel.
here is the map to help you
View attachment 83538
Its piplan tehsil which is not influenced by niazis, while isa khel and mianwali tehsils are politically and socio-economically dominated by niazis

Have you read this page on Mianwali history?

History-Gazateer of Mianwali

 

[Samandri]

Att
. The Pathan population mentioned in gazetteers is that of khattaks of makhad, who live on the banks of Indus and speak potohari I think. Chachis moved in later. They might have moved with durrani maybe. And it isn't easy beating awans in attock.


Musa khel is an awan dominates region along with wan bacharran. Niazis dominate isa khel tehsil. In mianwali every clan uses "khel" as a clan name including jatts hence the name khel is not a good indicator. The whole salt range region of mianwali is awan dominated.

But Musa khel is one of the branch of Niazis, awans there must be tenants/serfs. Take the example sher afgan niazi, his village daud khel lies east of indus and he was winning from NA-72 which according to you has no presence of niazis. In 2013 elections, the powerful candidates from NA 72, which lies east of indus, were Inamullah khan niazi and humair hayat rohkri (rohkri khel is branch of niazi). Rohkris are very influential and politically very strong in mianwali tehsil. I agree with @save_ghenda that pashtuns are quite insignificant in attock but mianwali is on whole another level. From business to sports, from music to literature, from jobs in civil service to army and in politics, niazis are at the top. Only nawab of kalabagh's family is exception, they are big shots after ayub khan period. Before that they were just jagirdar of kalabagh town, jagir given to them by british in 1848 for their services in british expansion to the region.

 

[Kabira]

But Musa khel is one of the branch of Niazis, awans there must be tenants/serfs. Take the example sher afgan niazi, his village daud khel lies east of indus and he was winning from NA-72 which according to you has no presence of niazis. In 2013 elections, the powerful candidates from NA 72, which lies east of indus, were Inamullah khan niazi and humair hayat rohkri (rohkri khel is branch of niazi). Rohkris are very influential and politically very strong in mianwali tehsil. I agree with @save_ghenda that pashtuns are quite insignificant in attock but mianwali is on whole another level. From business to sports, from music to literature, from jobs in civil service to army and in politics, niazis are at the top. Only nawab of kalabagh's family is exception, they are big shots after ayub khan period. Before that they were just jagirdar of kalabagh town, jagir given to them by british in 1848 for their services in british expansion to the region.

I was checking 2008 Mianwali election result, in punjab assembly 3 out of 4 were Niazis. In 2013 general election 2 out of 2 national assembly seats from Mianwali are Niazis. When someone is influential they will also get votes from other biraderis from their areas. I think thats how jats won 27% of seats in Punjab 2008 election despite being 10-12% of population.

One see similar patern with Baloch who are very influential in South Punjab and won 11 seats. But i doubt their share in population is near that.

Electoral results by caste

 

[Samandri]

@save_ghenda i have read that page , its actually is content of Bannu gazetteer (mianwali, bhakkar and layyah were part of bannu at that time). It says in 1901 that Sarhang niazis established themeselves east of indus 150 years ago i.e 1750, times of ahmad shah abdali. Niazi contingent under khan zaman khan of isa khel was present in panipat 1761, rise of Durranis did help them against ghakkars. The gazeteer is saying that in jahangeer times niazis were able to drove out ghakkars out of mianwali but soon lost the newly acquired possessions east of to indus but lost it soon to ghakkars .
There was a reason why niazis were trying to wrest part of mianwali from ghakkars which lied east of indus, they were once niazi territories. Beside isa khel and sarhang, there was another major branch of niazis, the sumbhals. Sumbhals were in possession of present day mianwali tehsil before sher shah suri. During sher shah suri, they came into conflict with his nephew mubarak due to which they were massacred into an almost extinction and remnants fled west of indus. Full story is here.
Sumbal Niazis of Mianwali - the story
Glossary of the Tribes and Castes of the Punjab and North West Frontier Province - Google Books
@ghoul

I was checking 2008 Mianwali election result, in punjab assembly 3 out of 4 were Niazis. In 2013 general election 2 out of 2 national assembly seats from Mianwali are Niazis. When someone is influential they will also get votes from other biraderis from their areas. I think thats how jats won 27% of seats in Punjab 2008 election despite being 10-12% of population.

One see similar patern with Baloch who are very influential in South Punjab and won 11 seats. But i doubt their share in population is near that.

Electoral results by caste

That might be the case. Niazis are also winning a PA seat from bhakkar and i dont think they are forming majority in any of the tehsil there.
Punjab Assembly

 

[Shahmir]

Lets carve up all provinces into 30 odd admin units. Punjab is 62% of Pakistan being lead by a psychotic mass murderer.

We need better govt on a smaller level. Small units would destroy sardari culture, and by design would not allow a moronic CM to spend 45% of provincial budget on Lahore.

More provinces, e-govt, local body govts would mean a stronger center and weaker sardari nizam, low corruption, better and productive govt.

Why it always boils down to punjab, some have found that saying punjabis are evil would be considered politcally incorrect, so lets simply use NS or SS as proxy to badmouth punjab and punjabis, great strategy that I often observe on this board. It seems like there are no other provinces or regions in pakistan, all the CMs in those provinces are the most pious and the nobel peace prize winners so they should never be part of the critique discourse.

 

[Shahmir]

But Musa khel is one of the branch of Niazis, awans there must be tenants/serfs. Take the example sher afgan niazi, his village daud khel lies east of indus and he was winning from NA-72 which according to you has no presence of niazis. In 2013 elections, the powerful candidates from NA 72, which lies east of indus, were Inamullah khan niazi and humair hayat rohkri (rohkri khel is branch of niazi). Rohkris are very influential and politically very strong in mianwali tehsil. I agree with @save_ghenda that pashtuns are quite insignificant in attock but mianwali is on whole another level. From business to sports, from music to literature, from jobs in civil service to army and in politics, niazis are at the top. Only nawab of kalabagh's family is exception, they are big shots after ayub khan period. Before that they were just jagirdar of kalabagh town, jagir given to them by british in 1848 for their services in british expansion to the region.

I have noticed that you use the term tenant together with serfs with regards to agriculture when the two terms are totally different in nature, the more common term for a tenant is peasant farmer who is fully independent to use the land the way he wants to use it whereas more common term for serf would be bounded labour or simply put a slave. It is clear that land ownership was held by more established families having contacts with the ruling elites in the past but a peasant farmer was simply a farmer doing agriculture since centuries or in some cases since thousands of years. Whenever there was political instablitiy anywhere in south asia it was common that the landholders whose allegiance was with the losing side will lose land ownership and would rely on livelihood as tenants/peasant farmer and vice versa. A peasant which you like to call tenant simply ploughs the land in full independence and shares his crop with the landowner or in other cases pays rent to use the land of a landowner for ploughing. This is no different than taking loans from banks in modern times and returning it back with some interest once you earn from the investment that you made from the borrowed money.

 

[ghoul]

But Musa khel is one of the branch of Niazis, awans there must be tenants/serfs. Take the example sher afgan niazi, his village daud khel lies east of indus and he was winning from NA-72 which according to you has no presence of niazis. In 2013 elections, the powerful candidates from NA 72, which lies east of indus, were Inamullah khan niazi and humair hayat rohkri (rohkri khel is branch of niazi). Rohkris are very influential and politically very strong in mianwali tehsil. I agree with @save_ghenda that pashtuns are quite insignificant in attock but mianwali is on whole another level. From business to sports, from music to literature, from jobs in civil service to army and in politics, niazis are at the top. Only nawab of kalabagh's family is exception, they are big shots after ayub khan period. Before that they were just jagirdar of kalabagh town, jagir given to them by british in 1848 for their services in british expansion to the region.

Awans in Mianwali will never work as serfs as they're quite influential. They also have a rivalry with Niazis there. My Niazi friend told me long ago of such hostilities. Besides, the Awans of Mianwali aren't the "kammi" serf material. They intermarry with the local baloch, and Talagang lies just a few miles east. Go read Pakistani political analyses on mianwali and all talk of a Malik vs Niazi political rivalry. And I read in a British settlement report or Gazetteer, I can't remember, that Musa Khel is an Awan dominated region. And again, you're wrong about Maliks being only powerful in Kalabagh. Their villages Wan Bacharran, Kundian, Alluwali etc are quite influential. And Niazis dominate the Mianwali city, and form 40%+ of the overall population of the district. Jatts of Mianwali are also influential in the Thal region. And Awans generally consider Niazis as uncouth barbarian people lol. Sher Shah Awan, a victoria cross recipient, was from Mianwali.

As for Niazis attacking Gakhars, well they did it with the aid of Khattaks, and were actually pumped by an Iraqi Sufi(syed). The descendants of that Sufi are called "Banauri" in Mianwali district. They are said to have succeeded initially, but got defeated by a Gakhar counter attack. Gakhars were and are tough people, and not easy to fight lol. Lalu Panju tribes couldn't fare well against them. Heck, they even defeated the Chibs of Bhimber in Gujrat, who were hardcore people themselves. The Chibs of Bhimber defeated the Bhangi Missal twice, and it was left to Gulab Singh Dogra to defeat them. And I read in Jhelum settlement report that by many learned British army men, Gakhar cavalry was considered the best in entire South Asia.

As for Attock, well the Khattak "Khan of Makhad" is a big and respected Jagirdar. The current head of Gakhars, Sultan Erij Zaman's mother was the daughter of Khan of Makhad. The Khattaks of Makhad intermarry with the bigshots of the region such as Khattars etc. Khattar biraderi is the most powerful in Attock, and during the governorship of Hari Singh Nalwa, Khattars enjoyed the same reputation on the east of Indus as Afridis did on the west; as in they were considered very fierce and predatory.

 

[Shahmir]

I was checking 2008 Mianwali election result, in punjab assembly 3 out of 4 were Niazis. In 2013 general election 2 out of 2 national assembly seats from Mianwali are Niazis. When someone is influential they will also get votes from other biraderis from their areas. I think thats how jats won 27% of seats in Punjab 2008 election despite being 10-12% of population.

One see similar patern with Baloch who are very influential in South Punjab and won 11 seats. But i doubt their share in population is near that.

Electoral results by caste

You have got it absolutely right the seats won by a biradari do not mean that only that biradari is the most influential in that constituency. It just means that the candidate together with significant vote of his own biradari vote also has good reputation among most other biradaries in that constituency because no biradari can ever make more than 20% of the population of any national assembly constituency anywhere for example in punjab and I believe in any area of pakistan too baring some tribal areas of balochistan and FATA.

 

[Shahmir]

Awans in Mianwali will never work as serfs as they're quite influential. They also have a rivalry with Niazis there. My Niazi friend told me long ago of such hostilities. Besides, the Awans of Mianwali aren't the "kammi" serf material. They intermarry with the local baloch, and Talagang lies just a few miles east. Go read Pakistani political analyses on mianwali and all talk of a Malik vs Niazi political rivalry. And I read in a British settlement report or Gazetteer, I can't remember, that Musa Khel is an Awan dominated region. And again, you're wrong about Maliks being only powerful in Kalabagh. Their villages Wan Bacharran, Kundian, Alluwali etc are quite influential. And Niazis dominate the Mianwali city, and form 40%+ of the overall population of the district. Jatts of Mianwali are also influential in the Thal region. And Awans generally consider Niazis as uncouth barbarian people lol. Sher Shah Awan, a victoria cross recipient, was from Mianwali.

As for Niazis attacking Gakhars, well they did it with the aid of Khattaks, and were actually pumped by an Iraqi Sufi(syed). The descendants of that Sufi are called "Banauri" in Mianwali district. They are said to have succeeded initially, but got defeated by a Gakhar counter attack. Gakhars were and are tough people, and not easy to fight lol. Lalu Panju tribes couldn't fare well against them. Heck, they even defeated the Chibs of Bhimber in Gujrat, who were hardcore people themselves. The Chibs of Bhimber defeated the Bhangi Missal twice, and it was left to Gulab Singh Dogra to defeat them. And I read in Jhelum settlement report that by many learned British army men, Gakhar cavalry was considered the best in entire South Asia.

As for Attock, well the Khattak "Khan of Makhad" is a big and respected Jagirdar. The current head of Gakhars, Sultan Erij Zaman's mother was the daughter of Khan of Makhad. The Khattaks of Makhad intermarry with the bigshots of the region such as Khattars etc. Khattar biraderi is the most powerful in Attock, and during the governorship of Hari Singh Nalwa, Khattars enjoyed the same reputation on the east of Indus as Afridis did on the west; as in they were considered very fierce and predatory.

I think he really does not understand the concept of serf in the society of punjab which simply means a slave such as bhatta brick workers that we see are kind of slaves or bounded labour. He is continuously confusing or mixing up a serf (bounded slave labour) with an independent farmer who has taken the land on rent for ploughing purpose for a particular crop season for which this farmer will pay the rent or a specific share of harvest in case he does not have the capital. In other words there is a fundamental difference between a "serf" and a "tenant" in the context of agriculture.

 

[Samandri]

I think he really does not understand the concept of serf in the society of punjab which simply means a slave such as bhatta brick workers that we see are kind of slaves or bounded labour. He is continuously confusing or mixing up a serf (bounded slave labour) with and independent farmer who has taken the land on rent for ploughing purpose for a particular crop season for which this farmer will pay the rent or a specific share of harvest in case he does not have the capital. In other words there is a fundamental difference between a "serf" and a "tenant" in the context of agriculture.

What i meant was tenant, i think i got the meaning of serf wrong. In pashto tenant is called "bahiwal' and he gets 50% share of yield from landowner in our areas.

 

[Shahmir]

What i meant was tenant, i think i got the meaning of serf wrong.

Yes I think the word "serf" provoked ghoul because this has very negative meaning in the context of the society of punjab, it is same as I said like bhatta brick workers in punjab and in case of agriculture usually masalli or chura background people will accept to work as a "serf" for long term bounded labour.