T-LORAMIDS Tender | Updates & Discussion

[Saithan]

Why is everyone continuing in the same single track. The Chinese continue with their rambling, and so are our Pakistani brothers. Doesn't anyone bother reading post that actual has real facts or a train of thought that makes sense ?

1. HQ-9 is a stand alone system, which means no integration to NATO, and guess what that means too, no Chinese fingers in NATO systems (so to speak).
2. People should remember China does nothing for anyone other than themselves. Our Pakistani brothers are getting armed just to counter India (blunt opinion). Oh that goes for every other country in the world as well. With some of the comments from our muslim brothers, I get the feeling they'd sell their own skin, but that's the problem with muslims, they're getting involved too much, to the point of fault!
3. Chinese people don't react well, when asked to provide proof. (I can see it on this thread, but that's not much different from some other countries *cough*Iran*cough*).
4. Also perhaps unintentional the US fella who mention corruption did it in a way that ticked off some turkish members, and well.. that's quite common in here.

I'll tell you what I think, it doesn't matter if HQ-9 is on par, better, or worse than PAC-3, S300. What matters if the knowledge we'll gain from having them, and the political messages sent by choosing it. The West always play by these rules, sell sell sell sell, drawings ? techology, naah you don't need that, sell sell sell. And the best time to sell the stuff is when there is trouble in the region. during peaceful times you are kept from developing, improving, and during crises you have to pay the high price.

5. Turkey is working on improving relations, and I guess shopping military stuff can be a part of that game. imagine, 1,3 billion chinese are being told, "Great NATO country Turkey bought our HQ-9 missiles, We're going to be cooperating in the future, weee, yeeeah", and that's great, now that's a good commercial for Turkey. the buying power of 1,3 billion tourists shouldn't be underestimated.

nearly forgot, no we don't have missiles with 1500 km range, not yet

 

[gr8vision]

No you got me wrong. Let me re-quote myself: "And on your first point. Yes we don't know for sure if tests were conducted in Turkey." So no, I can't provide any proof.

I don't know how so certainly you can say no trials were held in Turkey either. All I am saying is, given the prize money of multi-billion, It is more than reasonable that we requested a "demo" of the goods we are going to pay for. Also I have mentioned nothing about the success rates and I agree with you that the rates given in the blog could just be baloney.

Edit: these tests don't even have to be conducted in Turkey if you are thinking about transportation. Our officials can just fly to whatever country and witness tests there.

Turkish officials could have flown to all 4-5 countries, and witnessed tests there. In which case, I am sure all tests would show 100% accuracy - which in real combat is impossible to achieve.

Had any tests been conducted in Turkey, the Turkish press would have written about it, not some Chinese blog Sina.

Likewise, had FD-2000 been superior to S-300VM, then Turkish military analysts would have speculated about it. So far a deafening silence. And of course the fact that China bought and took delivery of 15 batteries of S-300 PMU-2 as late March 2010 proves beyond any doubt that Chinese systems, be it HQ-9, or HQ-16, or HQ-19, or whatever, are still not at the level. Yes, they might have much better computer monitors in them, and they might even be able to incorporate the best technologies from different producers (i.e., radars and guidance systems from American Patriot PAC-2/PAC-3, and rest of the SAM technology from Russian S-300 PT/PMU/PMU-2), but still, they are behind, they are too new, too untested, with too many hidden flaws and bugs that only years of service as well as actual combat usage can reveal.

 

[-SINAN-]

Turkish officials could have flown to all 4-5 countries, and witnessed tests there. In which case, I am sure all tests would show 100% accuracy - which in real combat is impossible to achieve.

Had any tests been conducted in Turkey, the Turkish press would have written about it, not some Chinese blog Sina.

Likewise, had FD-2000 been superior to S-300VM, then Turkish military analysts would have speculated about it. So far a deafening silence. And of course the fact that China bought and took delivery of 15 batteries of S-300 PMU-2 as late March 2010 proves beyond any doubt that Chinese systems, be it HQ-9, or HQ-16, or HQ-19, or whatever, are still not at the level. Yes, they might have much better computer monitors in them, and they might even be able to incorporate the best technologies from different producers (i.e., radars and guidance systems from American Patriot PAC-2/PAC-3, and rest of the SAM technology from Russian S-300 PT/PMU/PMU-2), but still, they are behind, they are too new, too untested, with too many hidden flaws and bugs that only years of service as well as actual combat usage can reveal.

Mate, straight, simple question. If you were a Turk would you rather buy Patriots off the shelf or you would go for the one which provides ToT ?

 

[ozi2000]

3 Detail In Air Defence System Deal

According to Takvim newspaper 3 factors played important role

1- The programming language used in FD-2000 system is suitable to integrate it into Nato systems.
2- China offered rocket technology used in the systems.
3- In Mid term production will be in Turkey and with its development Turkey will be able to market the new system.

3 farkl

 

[Safriz]

Russian offer for S300 had strings attached.
Here is a brief history
Turkey hopes to buy S-400 air defense systems from Russia | Russia | RIA Novosti

Aksenov, who leads the Russian delegation at the IDEF 2009 exhibition, said the possible deliveries of the S-400 to Turkey were discussed during talks with Turkey's undersecretary for defense industries, Murad Bayar.
A source in the Russian delegation later told RIA Novosti that the issue had a political aspect and strongly depended on the outcome of the ongoing dispute between Russia and NATO on the deployment of a U.S. missile shield in central Europe.

 

[hacksquat]

Mate, straight, simple question. If you were a Turk would you rather to buy Patriots off the shelf or you would go for the one which provides ToT ?

Exactly ... Also an added plus is the fact that FD-2000 is unkown to our most powerful nieghbour - Greeks with their S-300 AND Patriots. Given Greece's close relationship with France, SAMP/T wouldn't be much different either.

 

[TheThreePashas]

Finally? We Arabs were the first in the Muslim world to use the word secular. Since we had an ancient Christian (one of the the first Christian people were us Arabs and Semites (obviously) and to this day we have Christian Arab communities.

Correct me if I am wrong but there is no original word for secular/secularism in either Turkish or Farsi. If there are they came from other languages (Arabic for example).

Umm. What?

Who the hell cares whether we have a word for secularism in Turkish? We don't btw. The word laiklik comes from French. So?

Just because you have a name for it doesn't mean anything. OOoooo, you used it first? See ya later man. Most Arab countries are very much not secular and those Christian communities that you cite are usually under-siege in your countries. There's a reason a lot of Christian Arabs in the United States hate their home country and muslims. If you think Jews or Hindus hate muslims, wait till you see a christian arab talk about their home country. I don't think that people like that are a majority. But there's a reason they exist. I'm sure most Christian Arabs are at peace with their muslim countrymen, but don't preach Secularism.

I won't let a Saudi tell me how Turks are late to the game on secularism, sorry if that offends. It's just really really hypocritical.

 

[al-Hasani]

Umm. What?

Who the hell cares whether we have a word for secularism in Turkish? We don't btw. The word laiklik comes from French. So?

Just because you have a name for it doesn't mean anything. OOoooo, you used it first? See ya later man. Most Arab countries are very much not secular and those Christian communities that you cite are usually under-siege in your countries. There's a reason a lot of Christian Arabs in the United States hate their home country and muslims. If you think Jews or Hindus hate muslims, wait till you see a christian arab talk about their home country. I don't think that people like that are a majority. But there's a reason they exist. I'm sure most Christian Arabs are at peace with their muslim countrymen, but don't preach Secularism.

I won't let a Saudi tell me how Turks are late to the game on secularism, sorry if that offends. It's just really really hypocritical.

What are you talking about? It's not my problem that you don't know history or cannot come to terms with the facts I stated. I was correct anyway. Why the hell are you making such a big fuss? Yes, you are the champion of secularism. Are you happy now?

What is the relevance of your remaining rant? Does it change history or the fact that we Arabs operated with secularism before most other Muslims? Care to tell me that?

Christian Arabs are proud of being Arabs. Don't tell bullshit. We even have Christian Arabs here who proudly proclaim that they are Arabs. Most Christians from the Arab world living in the USA are Assyrians and Druzes. Not Arabs. Although they are Semitic people too. Big difference.

 

[TheThreePashas]

What are you talking about? It's not my problem that you don't know history or cannot come to terms with the facts I stated. I was correct anyway. Why the hell are you making such a big fuss? Yes, you are the champion of secularism. Are you happy now?

What is the relevance of your remaining rant? Does it change history or the fact that we Arabs operated with secularism before most other Muslims? Care to tell me that?

Christian Arabs are proud of being Arabs. Don't tell bullshit. We even have Christian Arabs here who proudly proclaim that they are Arabs. Most Christians from the Arab world living in the USA are Assyrians and Druzes. Not Arabs. Although they are Semitic people too. Big difference.

I'm sure they are proud of being Arab. That's why I said I don't believe those people are in the majority.

I will tell you though, I would not be able to tell the difference between a druze/assyrian/arab without specifically getting to know them, aka them telling me. All I'm saying is this. Remember that hateful anti-muslim film that "caused" the riots that killed the US ambassador to Libya? Who made it? An Egyptian Copt.

Anyways. Let's not derail the topic, this conversation has nothing to do with air defense assets lol.

 

[al-Hasani]

I'm sure they are proud of being Arab. That's why I said I don't believe those people are in the majority.

I will tell you though, I would not be able to tell the difference between a druze/assyrian/arab without specifically getting to know them, aka them telling me. All I'm saying is this. Remember that hateful anti-muslim film that "caused" the riots that killed the US ambassador to Libya? Who made it? An Egyptian Copt.

Anyways. Let's not derail the topic, this conversation has nothing to do with air defense assets lol.

Well, I was surprised by your tone here to tell you honestly.

Yes, that is often the case. All Semitic peoples so they are bound to have similarities. Even the languages are similar let alone the appearance. After all we are from the same region. It would be like spotting the difference between a Kazakh and a Turkmen knowing little of the differences between Central Asian Turkic peoples.

I recall something about a movie. Not sure who made it. But there are plenty of former Muslims who have made similar things. Arabs also. Let them do it. Sometimes it is good to just let them expose themselves.

Yeah, sure. No biggie.

 

[Bismarck]

There is no way in hell that FD-2000 will be allowed to integrate with NATO command and control system. FD-2000 is an eastern bloc weapon and so integrate with the Warsaw pact command and control system.

You are right! Turkey will never be allowed a Chinese system to integrate into a NATO system. That's for sure...but maybe a Turkish system (NATO member) is allowed to integrate into a NATO system.

 

[Safriz]

You are right! Turkey will never be allowed a Chinese system to integrate into a NATO system. That's for sure...but maybe a Turkish system (NATO member) is allowed to integrate into a NATO system.

and what's the basis of your assumption?

 

[cabatli_53]

You are right! Turkey will never be allowed a Chinese system to integrate into a NATO system. That's for sure...but maybe a Turkish system (NATO member) is allowed to integrate into a NATO system.

Situation would be like FD-2000 system will be re-developed (Firstly electronic/software section, later missiles handled by Turkey's standarts, then export activities) by Turkish engineers under domestic command-control center and softwares to integrate into NATO's network. Those Long range missiles should communicate with Turkey's AEW&C platforms to engage the targets locked by them as well so Working under Turkey's same network is vital but If you ask me, Turkey doesn't care integrating own strategic assets into NATO radar network. Turkish Army uses state of art Aselsan developed command-control infastructure called Skywatcher for homeland security and Eash Air defence assets are operated under Skywatcher command-control network.

With integration of AEW&C aircrafts into Aselsan SkyWatcher SAM network thanks to Havelsan developed command-control softwares, The capabilities of system enlarged and new updates are applied for Skywatcher. As far as I know, Latest version of system is called as Skywatcher-D which provide impressive autonom capabilities to all SAM assets thanks to dataes taken from radar network. This system is tested in a multinational NATO exercise as well and Aselsan mentioned as rare institute which is able to develop such a capable and strategic command-control infastructure.

 

[cabatli_53]

Turkey's TRS-22XX Long range land based mobile Radar network

 

[what]

Turkey’s China deal on missile system not finalized, says President Gül

Turkey’s deal with China over the construction of a long-range air and anti-missile system is not the final decision, President Abdullah Gül said yesterday.

That purchase is not definite. There is a shortlist, and China is at the top of it. We should look at the conditions, but there is no doubt that Turkey is primarily in NATO. These are multi-dimensional issues, there are technical and economic dimensions and on the other hand there is an alliance dimension. These are being evaluated. Turkey needs a defense system,” Gül said while onboard a plane that was en route to Turkey.

BUSINESS - Turkey