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T-80 and T-85 MBTs of Pakistan along with Al Khalid and Al Zarrar

Your knowledge regarding the Max Penetration is 600 mm for Chinese rounds, That is Quite an good Penetrator However there have been new and almost 50% more powerful Perpetrators. Additionally the ATGM's.

Actually, a buddy's analysis proves that China's best penetrators so far have a penetration of "only" 650 mm at maximum for 125 mm caliber. For 152 mm, no pictures of ammunition are available :(

Best Chinese ATGM will perform as well as Russian 90's ATGM - 700-750 mm RHA.
 
Western tank designs mostly prefer 4 crew members team, commander, gunner, driver, & loader. But Russian designs & all its derivatives prefer 3 crew members team, commander, gunner, driver, & an auto-loader. Can you guys tell me the advantages & disadvantages of both the design concepts? In other words, I want to know the pros & cons of a manual loader vs auto-loader. And since a 4 crew members team makes the tank bigger & heavier to accommodate 1 extra person, does it also offer some significant benefit to justify the bigger size, extra weight, & more cost?

Advantages of 4 man crew with manual loader:

1. Superior situational awareness.
2. More space inside and outside crew compartment for modifications.
3. Simple maintenance activities take much less time to complete.
4. Reloading of the tank's bustle storage takes little time with 4 crew members.
5. More close range protection is possible, both loader and commander can fire mounted machine guns.
6. No problematic autoloader problems, human loader doesn't need repairs. :D
7. Rate of fire is usually more than the autoloader.

Disadvantages of 4 man crew with human loader:

1. If the tank is running on rough terrain, the loader will find it difficult to load the main gun, reducing rate of fire.
2. More weight for same armour level.
3. Become large tanks, easier to hit thanks to width.
4. More crew members means more money spent on training and feeding them.
5. Since Loader is human, if he is hit, someone else will have to take his job in the battlefield, complications might occur.

Advantages of 3 man crew with Autoloader:

1. Lesser weight for same armour.
2. Autoloader gives stable, reliable rate of fire.
3. Smaller target.
4. Smaller engine and lesser fuel is required, increasing mobility.

Disadvantages of 3 man crew with autoloader:

1. If autoloader malfunctions, manual loading takes at least half a minute in any smoothbore weapon.
2. More repairs.
3. Lesser space for crew and modifications.
4. Maintenance is much tougher with lesser crew members.

Western designs put emphasis on situational awareness which is huge benefit and advantage over Soviet tank designs, western designers don't worry if weight exceeds 60 tons, they focus on protection. However in the future, Western tanks are also moving to autoloaders with 140 mm caliber and unmanned turrets to reduce weight significantly, but not two-piece ammunition but single piece ammunition which makes for more length than current 120 mm rounds, a significant advantage over Russian design "Armata", future Ukrainian designs and Chinese Type 99KM.

Current NPzK with 80's 90's technology ammunition could penetrate 1100 mm of RHA with German ammunition (old WHA alloys, much inferior to DU alloys those days) and 1050 mm with Swiss ammunition. Imagine, if Germans use newer Tungsten alloys with composite sabot technology and DM-63's propellant, what would happen!

Well, US already has several unmanned turret tanks designs, all with excess of 1200 mm equivalent composite armours in the frontal aspect, an extraordinary achievement while keeping weight below 55 tons.

The future is coming. It's just that we aren't ready for it. :(
 
Buy the License of Altay MBT and all Tank problems of Pakistan Army will be solved.

But only if you call him " Al-........." :omghaha:
 
Actually, a buddy's analysis proves that China's best penetrators so far have a penetration of "only" 650 mm at maximum for 125 mm caliber. For 152 mm, no pictures of ammunition are available :(

Best Chinese ATGM will perform as well as Russian 90's ATGM - 700-750 mm RHA.

If you ask me 600 mm penetration is enough for today's time but i believe there are more than 600mm pentrators. But I still think they are enough and atgm Is at excellent par 700-750mm with era layer to be quoted.
 
If you ask me 600 mm penetration is enough for today's time but i believe there are more than 600mm pentrators. But I still think they are enough and atgm Is at excellent par 700-750mm with era layer to be quoted.

69605.jpg


Whatever. I still do not consider it as enough
 
69605.jpg


Whatever. I still do not consider it as enough


You have excellent knowledge but u are wrong regarding the Tank Armament power of penetration of chinese tanks. 960 mm by KE rounds in type 99. Indeed there are numbers of errors detected when new tank is in operation. All are resolved.

Which you seem to be stubborn to agree or your source does not have Idea what Dragon's army has...

Chinese 125 Type 1 and type 2 are the answer ...
 
You have excellent knowledge but u are wrong regarding the Tank Armament power of penetration of chinese tanks. 960 mm by KE rounds in type 99. Indeed there are numbers of errors detected when new tank is in operation. All are resolved.

Which you seem to be stubborn to agree or your source does not have Idea what Dragon's army has...

Chinese 125 Type 1 and type 2 are the answer ...

I am stubborn, yes, and I have proof that China has a penetrator with penetration of no more than 650 mm. The 960 mm penetration is a fake. For it, a penetrator length of at least 900 mm would be needed and round length of 950 mm will be needed. Crew compartment of Type 99 is, put mildly, simply too small to host such a long modified AZ autoloader.

Maximum penetrator length seen on Chinese 125 mm is so far, only 600 mm. Penetrators with similar length is only old poorly performing M829 original model. M829 achieves 550 mm at 2 km like Naiza. Even with DU technology and new redesigned sabot, maximum penetration achieved by Type 99 APFSDS has been confirmed by a German expert with 20 years experience with APFSDS round performance estimation as no more than 650 mm.

Polish man employed in his country's army intelligence has said that 680 mm is "hopeful estimate" andd "most probably nearer to 650 mm".

I will take their words above the Dragon's propaganda campaign. Heck, 2A46M modifications with low chamber pressure simply cannot stand the pressure generated by such powerful round. Even Rh 120 L/44 can stand only 150 shots from M829A3 before the barrel is replaced and will probably explode with 50 shots from DM-63 which was designed for longer gun.

Do not believe everything said by China - most of it is just propaganda - good old propaganda like Joseph Goebbels's nonsense.

I do not mind if you do not agree with me. We all choose to believe what we want. I prefer hard facts.

Buy the License of Altay MBT and all Tank problems of Pakistan Army will be solved.

But only if you call him " Al-........." :omghaha:

Altay is overall excellent design, as much frontal armour as Leopard 2A5, good side hull armour, protected within safe manoeuvring angles, more all-round protection than K2. Turkey has designed very good tank with South Korean help :tup:
 
Keshav Murali & alimobin memon, sorry I can't quote you as I am unable to quote or post any link till I reach 30 posts (strange rule of pdf!), but thanks a lot for your very informative answers. My last off-topic question to you guys....I am yet to find any logical answer for this:

The only major problem of Arjun tanks seem to be its heavy weight. But if I am not wrong, it was the army who asked DRDO to design a 4 crew tank....so didn't they knew a 4 crew tank will always be bulkier & heavier than its existing 3 crew tanks if armour protection level is not compromised? If heavy weight is a problem in most sub-continent battlefields, then army should have asked for a 3 crew tank in the first place...shouldn't they? :undecided:

In my opinion, as Arjun is there and its a good tank, instead of trying to reduce its weight below 50 ton, which I think will be a futile effort, army should use it and develop it further in hard desert areas where weight should not be an issue, and ask DRDO to develop a smaller version of Arjun (may be Abhimanyu :)) with 3 crew & an auto-loader, that will keep the weight below 50 ton but still be very advance & well-armoured. Having gained experience & knowledge on Arjun, this should not be very complicated for DRDO.

Indigenous development is very crucial for any country both from military & economic point of view. This flawed planning and frequent change of specifications & requirements by army, as seen in crucial Arjun & LCA projects, should be addressed and a series / block approach should be the way forward.

Though entirely off-topic, still I would request @Keshav Murali, @DARKY, & @alimobin memon to express your opinion as you guys know the subject very well. :)
 
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Keshav Murali & alimobin memon, another disadvantage of auto-loader, as far as I know is that, it puts restriction on both size & type of ammunition that can be loaded & fired from the cannon. Please let me know if I am wrong. :)
 
Keshav Murali & alimobin memon, another disadvantage of auto-loader, as far as I know is that, it puts restriction on both size & type of ammunition that can be loaded & fired from the cannon. Please let me know if I am wrong. :)

Yes, for AZ and 6ET autoloaders of Soviet origin (Used in Chinese tanks is AZ) since they have to load two-piece ammunition. But autoloaders designed for single-piece ammunition like Meggitt Compact Autoloader can hold lot of ammunition and ammunition size limit is very big, 1200 mm long maybe.

That's why Western countries are confidently moving to unmanned turrets with autoloaders in the near future. They have large autoloaders with plenty of space in turret and hull and single-piece ammunition.
 
A very very informative thread,as usual we are very much behind as west and russia moves to unmanned turret designs.Hopefully FMBT will have unmanned turret,APS,and new smoothbore 140/152mm gun.
 
@AUSTERLITZ There is no FMBT as far as I know...that project has been scrapped. India will improve on Arjun only. Similarly for Pakistan, all development will be focused primarily on Al-Khalid.
 
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@AUSTERLITZ There is no FMBT as far as I know...that project has been scrapped. India will improve on Arjun only. Similarly for Pakistan, all development will be focused primarily on Al-Khalid.

I mean arjun mk3.I hope they go 3 crew unmanned route and i think they will because that brings weight down a primary complaint of IA,but what i fear they won't do is increase the calibre of the main gun to 140 mm or 152 mm.I think theyw ill stick with 120 mm smoothbore gun.At least i hope they make the turret so that later it can fit a 140 mm gun onto it if necessary.
 
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I prefer a commander controlling the main gun and remote controlled Machine gun Rather an unmanned technology.
 
Keshav Murali & alimobin memon, sorry I can't quote you as I am unable to quote or post any link till I reach 30 posts (strange rule of pdf!), but thanks a lot for your very informative answers. My last off-topic question to you guys....I am yet to find any logical answer for this:

The only major problem of Arjun tanks seem to be its heavy weight. But if I am not wrong, it was the army who asked DRDO to design a 4 crew tank....so didn't they knew a 4 crew tank will always be bulkier & heavier than its existing 3 crew tanks if armour protection level is not compromised? If heavy weight is a problem in most sub-continent battlefields, then army should have asked for a 3 crew tank in the first place...shouldn't they? :undecided:

In my opinion, as Arjun is there and its a good tank, instead of trying to reduce its weight below 50 ton, which I think will be a futile effort, army should use it and develop it further in hard desert areas where weight should not be an issue, and ask DRDO to develop a smaller version of Arjun (may be Abhimanyu :)) with 3 crew & an auto-loader, that will keep the weight below 50 ton but still be very advance & well-armoured. Having gained experience & knowledge on Arjun, this should not be very complicated for DRDO.

The problem of "heavy weight" you have mentioned, is not a matter at all now, but was a huge problem when we needed to induct rail wagons and new trucks. But logistics have been fixed. Army was not thinking sane when it gave the GSQR to DRDO, for 4 man crew and 120 mm gun, Challenger 2 weighs 62.5 tonnes, M1A1 weighed 60 tons, Leopard 2 always weighed in excess of 58 tons.

And weight of 58.5 tons is a problem only for us since Army was stubborn to stand with old logistics chain :lol:

At least now, the chain is fixed and the Arjun will have no problems in transport and thanks to the wide tracks, ground pressure is extremely low.

Yes, army should have asked for 3 man tank if they wanted low weight. But asking for 4 man crew gave valuable experience to CVRDE which will not go to waste :)

Arjun is being developed further, Mk-III version (FMBT competitor) will have an unmanned turret and 120 mm smoothbore (DRDO confirmed) Keeping weight below 50 tons is futile exercise with weight of gun and armour these days, but unmanned turret gives extreme weight savings which can be exploited for armour increase.

The first indigenous programs of all countries were dogged with delays, corruption, more delays, induction issues, product failure and so on. It is not happening to India alone. Both US and USSR experienced severe failures in MBT development, they learnt from their mistakes and moved on. We shall also do the same.

But above all, Arjun MK.1 and MK.II are an insult to the warrior Arjuna :sad: Not to mention that comparing T-90S with Bhishma is a futile exercise, Bhishma was an archer and strategist without equal in the Mahabharata.

It is not nice, comparing tanks with heroes in our literature. Maybe they want Arjun Mk.I to be like the warrior Arjuna himself "killing" hundreds of "warriors" with "arrows".

:sleep:
 

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