Keshav Murali
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Thanks for the compliment you too are good thats why I am discussing with u.
You're welcome sir. I like discussion with people who are informed in these matters
alimobin memon said:Furthermore it is rare that tanks fight face to face so even for today M1a2 has around 600 mm in its weak parts that is sides or hull against an KE and reality almost all tank to tank battles the tanks now use KE or DU rounds to fight so of course The M1a2 isn't as good as it is taken in reality that it is invincible. what m1a2 makes more powerful is that its main gun power and Range that it first fires then the most modern tanks I believe it has defeated an Armour at the range of over 7 km with Target designator. but in Urban areas the tank engagement is around the radius of 2 km max even that is rare.
according to the Iraq war studies it was found the t 72 lion of Babylon had the first hits in face to face fight due to urban areas but the poor iraqi variant did not had enough power as any t72 of Russian and soviet era. My point is simple The Type 85IIAP can defeat M1A2 sep in urban areas at the range of 2 km but with one condition that is the abrams side armour is towards the gun sight of Type85IIAP at the range of atleast 1.8km which is good for urban areas. t72 of today can even at greater range fight abrams as t72 is improved at the marvellous range. What the Type 85IIAp lacks is its self protection that it wont survive abrams even at ranges beyond 3km . So its chance of fighting and survivability is only in urban areas.
True about weakspots. However, Abrams has only one weakspot in frontal area, gap between turret and hull that is so small that it is impossible to hit unless enemy tank is within 100 metres. Also, Abrams side armour is rated at 500+ and with TUSK upgrade it becomes about 620-650. That's the upgrades - ARAT ERA is effective - it is based on Kontact-5. So Abrams is still tough nut.
L/44 M256 of Abrams is nothing special these days, it has been surpassed by L/55(German), 140 mm NPzK(German), 125 mm 2A82(Russia), 125 mm "Vitiaz"(Ukraine), 152 mm 2A83(Russia) and 140 mm "Bagheera"(Ukraine). Only special thing is M829A3 penetrator. M829E4 is going to be even more formidable. US penetrators perform better than others due to sabot construction. For example, sabot of 120 mm KE round usually weighs 3-3.5 kg. However, M829A3,E4 sabot weighs around 2 kg thanks to light weight composites. So more muzzle energy is transferred to the penetrator and performance is more
Type 85-II should be able to defeat Abrams side armour without ERA at ranges of 2km but with ERA is tough since China doesn't have segmented penetrator. Heavy ERA disintegrates penetrators , so Germans, Russians and Americans developed segmented penetrator of which only first part will disintegrate when it impacts heavy ERA. Since ERA also is neutralized, remaining segments penetrate base armour layer. Ingenious isn't it? Segmented APFSDS rounds so far are:
3BM42 "Mango" - questionable (Soviet Union)
3BM42M/44M "Lekalo" - confirmed (Russia)
M829A3 - confirmed (USA)
M829E4 - unknown (USA, in-development)
3BM59/60 "Svinets -1/2" - confirmed (Russia, in-development)
DM53 - confirmed, 5 segments (Germany)
DM63 - confirmed (Germany)
Vityaz - There is doubt that this ammunition exists (Ukraine)
All Soviet/Russian/Chinese tanks have advantage at 3+ km since they have missiles, but still they have to hit side or rear armour.
Type 85-IIAP protection is comparable to T-72B, so it's not really very good for 21st century, but good for 80's and OK for 90's. As you say, it's survivability is poor in open areas.
alimobin memon said:Abrams in reality hasn't seen the war against any capable tank but has only fought t60 series of soviet era and t72 assembled in iraq with poor quality just 300mm of front armour and 60 mm of side armour that is just suicide for tank crews.
Abrams is capable tank, hasn't seen a proper challenge.