T-80 and T-85 MBTs of Pakistan along with Al Khalid and Al Zarrar

[alimobin memon]

Even if you call it under-estimation, I find it hard to believe that any tank with existing or near future technology can penetrate that much armor....



On a serious note, it is mm not km.

Oops that is obvious mm indeed.

Tank Protection Levels
here is an neutral not solid but good information.

Their are round that today can penetrate 800mm of steel armour. If 600mm cant be penetrated by any tank then the tanks must be immortal today.

 

[Kloitra]

Oops that is obvious mm indeed.

Tank Protection Levels
here is an neutral not solid but good information.

Their are round that today can penetrate 800mm of steel armour. If 600mm cant be penetrated by any tank then the tanks must be immortal today.

I believe you, it was just a little jest on your mistake.

 

[Keshav Murali]

@Keshav Murali and @alimobin memon and @DARKY

have always wanted to ask somebody this question and you chaps seem to be quite knowledgable. From what you chaps are discussing it seems each tank has a weak point based on its configuration on the battlefield. Would it not be intelligent to r&d and build a atgm which can intelligently detect tank type variant and attack the weakspot or before firing the information is fed into the missile and then fired?

I don't think ATGM can have a special detection system that would need a powerful computer that is miniaturised inside it. Too costly, impractical, virtually impossible.

Oops that is obvious mm indeed.

Tank Protection Levels
here is an neutral not solid but good information.

Their are round that today can penetrate 800mm of steel armour. If 600mm cant be penetrated by any tank then the tanks must be immortal today.

That site was made for gamers. Not accurate, derives most of its information from unreliable sources. Don't trust that site.

 

[alimobin memon]

I don't think ATGM can have a special detection system that would need a powerful computer that is miniaturised inside it. Too costly, impractical, virtually impossible.



That site was made for gamers. Not accurate, derives most of its information from unreliable sources. Don't trust that site.

For an assumption it is good source However I rely on different sources.

 

[HAIDER]

I think when Pak and India has most effective weapons against tanks, its useless to talk about that. Now Pak tanks are only useful in controlling insurgency and FATA area, while India use to control moaist area.

 

[surya kiran]

I don't think ATGM can have a special detection system that would need a powerful computer that is miniaturised inside it. Too costly, impractical, virtually impossible.

Not really. The same can be built, using specialised OS and restricted to simple operations. What it would need is an optical sensor connected to this and with current imaging technology not difficult to achieve.

 

[alimobin memon]

Ok my friend T80UD and Al Khalid use Composite armour. However Al Khalid uses modular composite armour These are like a huge and heavy armour brick That Can in future be replaced with new armor. It is necessary to note I am not talking about era but the basic armour attached to body. Alkhalid has normally two layers of armour. the basic armour has 600mm in front and 460 mm in sides than additional armour "Modular" is added to further increase the armour strength. than comes the Era layer.

According to the janes all total three layers that is , basic armour, Modular composite armour, and era of Al khalid had enough resistance that All that 120 and 125 mm armour that HIT was able to get were tested and were unable to penetrate it. Janes says its source is HIT itself. Furthermore comes Al khalid 1 with new Era brick being Developed in Pakistan.

Furthermore Modular composite armour is only added in Turret and some part of front side. The Side Armour is now not 460 but has increased equivalent to 600mm with Era to explain why it is increased to 600 mm is that 460 mm was the basic MBT 2000 armour protection for side of the tank but HIT further increased Armour to fulfill Pakistan army requirements. hence Front Armour with all three layers should be around 780-890mm making it effective modern tank even against Heavy Tanks like Abrams.


Note: Type 99 ,leclerc and Arjun have Modular Composite armor too

 

[HAIDER]

Don't think Alkhalid has AMAP , only LEOPARD 2SG use this technology .

 

[Keshav Murali]

Not really. The same can be built, using specialised OS and restricted to simple operations. What it would need is an optical sensor connected to this and with current imaging technology not difficult to achieve.

But ATGM will be extremely bulky and needs specialised OS, yes, with extremely fast processor and PERFECT programming with lowest memory block size. It won't be worth it, top-attack missiles will do the same job cheaper.

 

[Keshav Murali]

Ok my friend T80UD and Al Khalid use Composite armour. However Al Khalid uses modular composite armour These are like a huge and heavy armour brick That Can in future be replaced with new armor. It is necessary to note I am not talking about era but the basic armour attached to body. Alkhalid has normally two layers of armour. the basic armour has 600mm in front and 460 mm in sides than additional armour "Modular" is added to further increase the armour strength. than comes the Era layer.

According to the janes all total three layers that is , basic armour, Modular composite armour, and era of Al khalid had enough resistance that All that 120 and 125 mm armour that HIT was able to get were tested and were unable to penetrate it. Janes says its source is HIT itself. Furthermore comes Al khalid 1 with new Era brick being Developed in Pakistan.

Furthermore Modular composite armour is only added in Turret and some part of front side. The Side Armour is now not 460 but has increased equivalent to 600mm with Era to explain why it is increased to 600 mm is that 460 mm was the basic MBT 2000 armour protection for side of the tank but HIT further increased Armour to fulfill Pakistan army requirements. hence Front Armour with all three layers should be around 780-890mm making it effective modern tank even against Heavy Tanks like Abrams.


Note: Type 99 ,leclerc and Arjun have Modular Composite armor too

All Western tanks have semi-modular composite armour. Coverage of turret armour in Type 99 is poor though. That's why Type 99KM turret is being redesigned. Al-Khalid seems to have basic permanent armour over which modular is inserted? That's tough to achieve. Perhaps they are talking about the RHA shell that encases composite armour usually. 780,790 mm WITH ERA is possible, without ERA is very tough considering that Al-Khalid's weight is very little and composite level is at Western level in the 80's.

Maximum base armour of Al-Khalid will be 600 mm ± 50 mm. ERA seems to be K-1 style blocks with K-5 type materials, so we can safely add 200 mm.

Don't think Alkhalid has AMAP , only LEOPARD 2SG use this technology .

Do you mean the APS, if so it can also be used on CV90, Marder, Textron ASV and all Leopard 2.

I think when Pak and India has most effective weapons against tanks, its useless to talk about that. Now Pak tanks are only useful in controlling insurgency and FATA area, while India use to control moaist area.

India hasn't deployed tanks to control maoists. We use only police and CRPF. Not the army.

 

[Keshav Murali]

Type 85 Main Battle Tank
here

Alimobin, they mean that they have BK-27 triple warhead HEAT round which has maximum penetration of 750 mm ± 50 mm. Which means, since composites are extremely effective against HEAT, full penetration is impossible against any modern tank. Also, BK-29 seems to be HEAT warhead with hardened tungsten cone which helps to start initial penetration but reduces performance of shaped charge jet. Penetration is likely to be lower than BK-27.

 

[Keshav Murali]

T-72M1M Ajeya main armor (60-70degree front arc)

450-550mm vs KE plus ERA heavy 1st gen... added upto 100-150mm extra protection.

The best KE round in service with PA nazia DU 450-500mm penetration at 2km... only used on T-80UD and Al Khalid.

Jingoism has its place but you can be realistic at times.

AFA Type85III is concerned protection is Hardly above 300mm... It can be shot down by HEAT fired from T-72 at distance upto 3-4.5km but it is not accurate enough.. at such distances always.

Type 85 II-AP has protection of 500 ± 50 mm against shaped charge warheads, it may not be assured penetration with T-72 HEAT round.

Best KE round of PA Naiza DU has been estimated at 500 mm certified penetration and 560-570 mm possible penetration, equalling 3BM42 "Mango" against RHA but will perform much worse against composite armours since construction of Naiza is simple DU penetrator with heavy steel sabot.

@alimobin memon, 3BM42M "Lekalo" is actually Research topic - 3BM59 "Svinets-1" Tungsten round. 3BM60 "Svinets-2" is supposed to be DU round with similar long construction.

I have measured 3BM42M photos to scale and Fofanov is right, total round length is 740 mm. Penetrator length could be 700 mm. Fofanov underestimates penetration potential of "Lekalo" as 650 mm. Since "Lekalo" uses composite sabot, new propellant and special segmented long rod penetrator like M829A3 and has slightly lesser length than DM-53/63, I should say that penetration of "Lekalo" is in excess of 700 mm.

As for "Svinets-2", DU will provide better performance against RHA but inferior performance against composites. Penetration should be similar.

And "Lekalo" is supposed to have entered mass production already. So Russians have a confirmed multi-segment heavy long rod penetrator. Good for them

 

[Keshav Murali]

Naiza was first DU by pak their is newer variant with 680 mm was announced back in 2010 now there is one more in development exceeding 680mm

According to news from Al-Khalid discussion and information pool and things, old Naiza had penetration of 450-500 mm, better variant which entered service has penetration of 550 mm and at the same time - in-development round had penetration of maximum 620 mm of RHA according to Usman Ansari. You have overestimated Naiza. Maybe the in-development one is 680 mm penetrator.

As for Arjun, a few months of research made me get my hands on an interview of DRDO chief 5 years back.

The chief said that initial 120 mm APFSDS performance in 1996 was only 400 mm. Since Army was pretty angry, they lengthened penetrator slightly and used better Tungsten to achieve 460 mm penetration in 1997. He said that 500 mm penetration and 600 mm penetrating rounds were already ready by 2005 and 650 mm penetrating round is in development as of 2007.

We have three year lead on you

And Arjun's gun has more chamber pressure and can fire heavier and longer penetrators at same muzzle velocity and is capable of firing modified western rounds with new sabot. If Germans give us DM-63 blueprints, well, I do not want to talk about it. Only problem is Arjun gun barrel wears out quickly.

This contest of IA and PA tanks gets more and more interesting everyday!

 

[Keshav Murali]

@alimobin memon

For proof that 3BM42M "Lekalo" is indeed Svinets-1, see

125MM APFSDS ROUNDS

At Lekalo, fofanov has written that it is research topic Svinets-1.

And see similarity between "Lekalo" image and "Svinets-1" image.

Lekalo:

Svinets-1:

See similarity in penetrator tip construction and sabot. Svinets-1 is in testing stage and it might be slightly modified from original 3BM42M design.

Also, possible Svinets-2 image on right hand side- seems to be even longer than Svinets-1

See different sabot construction due to more weight, Svinets-1,2 are all the more dangerous than original Svinets (3BM-46)

See entirely different sabot.


I'd estimate penetration of 3BM42M "Lekalo" / 3BM59 "Svinets-1" as 700 ± 20 mm. That's high. And for "Svinets-2" estimate is 720 mm ± 30 mm. Of course, I am just an amateur

 

[alimobin memon]

All Western tanks have semi-modular composite armour. Coverage of turret armour in Type 99 is poor though. That's why Type 99KM turret is being redesigned. Al-Khalid seems to have basic permanent armour over which modular is inserted? That's tough to achieve. Perhaps they are talking about the RHA shell that encases composite armour usually. 780,790 mm WITH ERA is possible, without ERA is very tough considering that Al-Khalid's weight is very little and composite level is at Western level in the 80's.

Maximum base armour of Al-Khalid will be 600 mm ± 50 mm. ERA seems to be K-1 style blocks with K-5 type materials, so we can safely add 200 mm.



Do you mean the APS, if so it can also be used on CV90, Marder, Textron ASV and all Leopard 2.



India hasn't deployed tanks to control maoists. We use only police and CRPF. Not the army.

I have putted all three layers with max around 780-890mm. Now whether u agree or not is up to you. And Please Arjun Arjun leave it this is not a versus thread we are putting details of the tank, Arjun is an excellent no doubt but no comparison. Given the weight of the A K I agree it cant have very heavy base armour but MBT 2000 had itself the base armour of 600 mm. But MBT 2000 was the A K version during the 2001 era later HIT produced A K with more better armour but due to its weight it cant be more than 650 mm. Adding Era it has added around at least 150 mm of extra protection to the front making it 800 mm.

Composite armour add on on the "front" i said only add more punch so 890 max can be estimated. I am not an Hit official so I can't give the exact figure. Furthermore According to Janes book The A K has defeated most of KE rounds at front hit That HIT was able to get in bore of 120 and 125 mm.
You are repeating my words simply U admitted that with era it can have around 790 mm But I am telling u figures that Not just janes but People from army I know. My Uncle's first words were when I had discussion with him he said simply, " He heard news that Al Khalid is in mass production even after t 80 because Pakistan army tested all rounds it had in armor corps and A K " Survived. Including T 80 UD.


And Considering Type 99 has bad turret armor. It has withstand more than 7 rounds Direct at close range (1.8 km) with No Penetration at all at front. Pakistan army officials are impressed so much that they want to develop A k II solely based on Type 99 A2 which is even further development. The tank at front has more than M1A2 Armour that is around. 1000mm without era adding an ERA Will make its armour ~1200mm

Alimobin, they mean that they have BK-27 triple warhead HEAT round which has maximum penetration of 750 mm ± 50 mm. Which means, since composites are extremely effective against HEAT, full penetration is impossible against any modern tank. Also, BK-29 seems to be HEAT warhead with hardened tungsten cone which helps to start initial penetration but reduces performance of shaped charge jet. Penetration is likely to be lower than BK-27.

But It also mentions that to defeat ERA too.

According to news from Al-Khalid discussion and information pool and things, old Naiza had penetration of 450-500 mm, better variant which entered service has penetration of 550 mm and at the same time - in-development round had penetration of maximum 620 mm of RHA according to Usman Ansari. You have overestimated Naiza. Maybe the in-development one is 680 mm penetrator.

As for Arjun, a few months of research made me get my hands on an interview of DRDO chief 5 years back.

The chief said that initial 120 mm APFSDS performance in 1996 was only 400 mm. Since Army was pretty angry, they lengthened penetrator slightly and used better Tungsten to achieve 460 mm penetration in 1997. He said that 500 mm penetration and 600 mm penetrating rounds were already ready by 2005 and 650 mm penetrating round is in development as of 2007.

We have three year lead on you

And Arjun's gun has more chamber pressure and can fire heavier and longer penetrators at same muzzle velocity and is capable of firing modified western rounds with new sabot. If Germans give us DM-63 blueprints, well, I do not want to talk about it. Only problem is Arjun gun barrel wears out quickly.

This contest of IA and PA tanks gets more and more interesting everyday!

I am not just estimating the round powers. 620 mm was in production since 2011. further development is in process.