T-80 and T-85 MBTs of Pakistan along with Al Khalid and Al Zarrar

[DARKY]

1. T-72B values without ERA. T-85-II is very similar in composite technology (the time period) and very similar ERA blocks. But against more modern T-72 upgrades made by Russia (T-72BM) and Ukraine, Type 85 doesn't even stand a chance.

2. Actual force depends on Muzzle energy of the penetrator.

Actually DU ignites and disintegrates rapidly after penetration of composite armours, DU performs better than WHA at longer ranges against composites due to more mass but WHA performs better at close range against composites.

1.BM Oplot and Al Khalid are from same time period doesn't mean they have similar level in protection or armor or any thing else.

Type 85 is a modification of Soviet T-54 with weilded turret... while T-72 is a completely new design... even the turret size don't come close and you are talking about similar thickness of main armor.. the Chinese clone of T-72 is Type96 much more advanced and better protected than its ancestor Type85.

2.What is WHA?

KE rounds generally come with Tugeston or DU there is little difference until you make something like M289A3 the thickest and longest KE round in service or a monster 152mm or 140mm.

I have given the formula in Al Khalid info pool thread where TT Nabil's bogus claims and false info.... was busted again and again until mods closed the thread and asked me to discuss somewhere else.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

Hey @Keshav Murali & @alimobin memon what would say to the proposition that the Pakistan Army explores the option of converting our huge stock of T-54/55s (Type 59s) into Armored Personnel Carriers or even Combat Recovery Vehicles like the Israelis did first with their Centurions & now Merkava chassis based Namer ?

Surely a few dozen of these would serve Pakistan quite handsomely in the Tribal Areas where we've suffered quite a few casualties due to IEDs & even RPG attacks on customized Toyotas that usually carry our boys.

Or as Alimobin pointed out even as Infantry Fighting Vehicles ? Can it be done ? Would it be worth it ?

Hmmn @DESERT FIGHTER @jhungary @F.O.X @Last Hope @Hyperion @Dillinger - Can you guys pitch in as well ?

Converting old tanks into IFVs not feasible. IFV's need to carry atleast 6 infantrymen but a tank is not designed to take more then 4 operators. Secondly, tanks are huge fuel guzzlers. Old tanks may do only couple of KMs/gallon. So operationally also not feasible. Best use of old tanks is for training. Converting them into Self propelled artillery. Mine clearing and tank recovery tracks. For Pakistan, there is also a very good use of old tanks. Have you heard of 106mm anti tank RR (Recoil less Rifles)? These were the best anti-tank weapons in 1965 and 1971 wars. Still in use by Pak Army. These are normally installed on jeeps. Also used in fix defensive positions. Although modern tanks may withstand a RR hit from head on. But still APC's, trucks and other vehicles (not to mention old tanks like T-72) are vulnerable to RR. During last showdown of 2002, i have seen tanks deployed in fixed positions for direct firing. Old tanks of PA are still very effective in such defensive roles specially along Punjab plains. BTW Pakistan Army even use 122mm artillery in direct ground role for defense also. Pretty good our artillery man are in its training. Imagine a 122mm artillery round ripping apart a tank.

 

[DARKY]

1st al khalid, 2nd T80 UD then Type 85 Note that T is russian tank series Chinese is not T its type !

Enlighten us on the rating you put there and how is Al Khalid a better MBT as compared with T-80UD.

In terms of
1.Protection
2.Fire power
3.Mobility

 

[Keshav Murali]

1.BM Oplot and Al Khalid are from same time period doesn't mean they have similar level in protection or armor or any thing else.

Type 85 is a modification of Soviet T-54 with weilded turret... while T-72 is a completely new design... even the turret size don't come close and you are talking about similar thickness of main armor.. the Chinese clone of T-72 is Type96 much more advanced and better protected than its ancestor Type85.

2.What is WHA?

KE rounds generally come with Tugeston or DU there is little difference until you make something like M289A3 the thickest and longest KE round in service or a monster 152mm or 140mm.

I have given the formula in Al Khalid info pool thread where TT Nabil's bogus claims and false info.... was busted again and again until mods closed the thread and asked me to discuss somewhere else.

WHA is heavy tungsten alloy. Oplot is miles ahead, yes. Type 85 was made after "studying" T-72 according to some sources, I wouldn't be so sure about the T-54.

Actually, there are only minute differences between modern DU and WHA but WHA is still better against modern SLERA combined with Composite or linear shaped charge ERA (Nozh, Duplet) combined with Composite.

 

[Keshav Murali]

A very very informative thread,as usual we are very much behind as west and russia moves to unmanned turret designs.Hopefully FMBT will have unmanned turret,APS,and new smoothbore 140/152mm gun.

140/152 is likely, if we buy Armata, Russians will be willing to provide 2A83. But of course, only if we buy Armata.

Unmanned turret and APS is confirmed.

I prefer a commander controlling the main gun and remote controlled Machine gun Rather an unmanned technology.

Commander controlling main gun will make him so overworked he will kill himself. Unmanned turret, there are still people in the tank, only not in the turret but in the hull. It is not RC tank.

 

[Keshav Murali]

Hey @Keshav Murali & @alimobin memon what would say to the proposition that the Pakistan Army explores the option of converting our huge stock of T-54/55s (Type 59s) into Armored Personnel Carriers or even Combat Recovery Vehicles like the Israelis did first with their Centurions & now Merkava chassis based Namer ?

Surely a few dozen of these would serve Pakistan quite handsomely in the Tribal Areas where we've suffered quite a few casualties due to IEDs & even RPG attacks on customized Toyotas that usually carry our boys.

Or as Alimobin pointed out even as Infantry Fighting Vehicles ? Can it be done ? Would it be worth it ?

Hmmn @DESERT FIGHTER @jhungary @F.O.X @Last Hope @Hyperion @Dillinger - Can you guys pitch in as well ?

Convert them all! It is possible. But APC is nearly impossible, IFV is possible but chassis needs to be lengthened and turret redesigned. Recovery vehicles or heavy fire support weapons like BMPT are best.

As for serving PA handsomely, BMPT style conversions of your T-54A with 30 mm cannon, 12.7 mm cannon and heavier composite armour combined with ERA will make it almost fully impervious to RPG-7.

 

[Keshav Murali]

BTW Pakistan Army even use 122mm artillery in direct ground role for defense also. Pretty good our artillery man are in its training. Imagine a 122mm artillery round ripping apart a tank.

You see, 122 mm artillery HE rounds can do absolutely, incredibly, nothing against a tank! Unless it hits an open hatch, that is. Even roof armour is enough to resist old HE rounds.

Only gunsight will get damaged on a direct hit. Nothing more.

 

[Rajput_Pakistani]

You see, 122 mm artillery HE rounds can do absolutely, incredibly, nothing against a tank! Unless it hits an open hatch, that is. Even roof armour is enough to resist old HE rounds.

Only gunsight will get damaged on a direct hit. Nothing more.

I think there are 122mm HEAT rounds too for towed artillery...
Any how its not the thread to discuss artillery, i was just referring to use of old tanks in defensive, direct fire roles. Your idea of converting old tanks into IFV is good but sadly not feasible. Instead of so much redesigning its better to build a new IFV from scratch.

 

[alimobin memon]

Enlighten us on the rating you put there and how is Al Khalid a better MBT as compared with T-80UD.

In terms of
1.Protection
2.Fire power
3.Mobility

Basically There is no Much of Difference b/w T80 UD and AK in terms of Engine both are diesel but T80 is 1000 hp and ak is 1200hp. Al Khalid's Main Armour is equal to t80 ud without era or slight greater. The new Ak 1 has An improved ERA providing even greater protection then Original Ak variant. But However There are rumours that T80UD are getting new upgrade Then there might even be a chance that T80 UD might Get a better ERA than we can say indeed that T80 UD is better than Al Khalid. However the Thermal imagery of AK is newer and improved with better range then the T80 UD.

Al khalid was made after deal of T80 UD indeed some improvements from T80 UD have been aided to AK.

T80UD and Al Khalid are equal in terms of Firepower and armour(without era) However AK is better in some cases like I heard from some HIT workers friend of mine that A new Suspension and Battle Management Systems, Hunter Killer Capabilities, Remote Controlled AA gun and Auto loader of Ak has Better RPM for Main gun. around 8-9 Rounds per minute Making al khalid. So giving a good edge against T80 UD. Lets see what the Update Program for T80 UD brings...

Ak Main gun Muzzle velocity for KE rounds is 1760m/s while T80 UD is 1700m/s.

Ak armour for front is 600mm estimated by Janes but The AK 1 has totally new armour and "Era" too Giving it further improvement.

Some guys said Ak has no Modular composite armour. Even Janes book has quoted it that it has.

According to HIT friend ofcourse he didnt tell me exact figure but He told its not 600mm but greater it was MBT 2000 The original AK model But the inducted Pakistan Army model has Atleast 700mm armour Today including old variants being upgraded.

I maybe wrong But Im pretty sure about The Bolded Part it is confirmed other(inbolded part) is what I researched from the Janes book of armoured and artillery 2006 and some net sources.

 

[DARKY]

Basically There is no Much of Difference b/w T80 UD and AK in terms of Engine both are diesel but T80 is 1000 hp and ak is 1200hp. Al Khalid's Main Armour is equal to t80 ud without era or slight greater. The new Ak 1 has An improved ERA providing even greater protection then Original Ak variant. But However There are rumours that T80UD are getting new upgrade Then there might even be a chance that T80 UD might Get a better ERA than we can say indeed that T80 UD is better than Al Khalid. However the Thermal imagery of AK is newer and improved with better range then the T80 UD.

Al khalid was made after deal of T80 UD indeed some improvements from T80 UD have been aided to AK.

T80UD and Al Khalid are equal in terms of Firepower and armour(without era) However AK is better in some cases like I heard from some HIT workers friend of mine that A new Suspension and Battle Management Systems, Hunter Killer Capabilities, Remote Controlled AA gun and Auto loader of Ak has Better RPM for Main gun. around 8-9 Rounds per minute Making al khalid. So giving a good edge against T80 UD. Lets see what the Update Program for T80 UD brings...

Ak Main gun Muzzle velocity for KE rounds is 1760m/s while T80 UD is 1700m/s.

Ak armour for front is 600mm estimated by Janes but The AK 1 has totally new armour and "Era" too Giving it further improvement.

Some guys said Ak has no Modular composite armour. Even Janes book has quoted it that it has.

According to HIT friend ofcourse he didnt tell me exact figure but He told its not 600mm but greater it was MBT 2000 The original AK model But the inducted Pakistan Army model has Atleast 700mm armour Today including old variants being upgraded.

I maybe wrong But Im pretty sure about The Bolded Part it is confirmed other(inbolded part) is what I researched from the Janes book of armoured and artillery 2006 and some net sources.

The maximum thickness of the T-80U
front turret armor is reported to be
815mm thick reaching ~920mm near the
gun in the "weakened zone".

http://www.fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/MBT/t-80u_armor.html

Other than that right at the end of composite armor contains thick HHA plates on both sides.

1.Armor T-80U/UD wins hands down.
Here I would like to point out we did not consider K-5 era on T-80U/UD.

2.Fire power is more for T-80UD as it has different auto-loader which allows for longer rounds..... and higher rate of fire 8-9rpm vs 6-8rpm on carousal type auto loaders.

3.Mobility more or less same.

Now you can claim better fire control computer and other electronics on Al Khalid but T-80UD always have an upgrade package offcourse that comes at some cost and not soft loans.... hope you get the point.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Al khalid's FCS and internal electronics is most probably superior to t-80ud being a newer design.
Gun is same.ammo is same.Little difference in firepower.
In protection i give little edge to t-80ud IF it has t-84 oplot turret with welded composite armour.

 

[alimobin memon]

http://www.fofanov.armor.kiev.ua/Tanks/MBT/t-80u_armor.html

Other than that right at the end of composite armor contains thick HHA plates on both sides.

1.Armor T-80U/UD wins hands down.
Here I would like to point out we did not consider K-5 era on T-80U/UD.

2.Fire power is more for T-80UD as it has different auto-loader which allows for longer rounds..... and higher rate of fire 8-9rpm vs 6-8rpm on carousal type auto loaders.

3.Mobility more or less same.

Now you can claim better fire control computer and other electronics on Al Khalid but T-80UD always have an upgrade package offcourse that comes at some cost and not soft loans.... hope you get the point.

Sorry Dude the ammunition of both the tanks is same but AK has greater Muzzle Velocity for any round against T80 UD . The RPM for UD may have been greater but Now All AK are to be AK 1 standard with 8-9 rpm for main gun.

Furthermore The Al Khalid armour has been estimated their are no exact figures mind that. so claiming t80 UD has greater armour is injustice since AK has been considered more potent by the pakistan army itself.

If you dont want to agree with me dont ask me again. Because you guys ask than Say no u are wrong I have no time to argue . Regardz

 

[DARKY]

WHA is heavy tungsten alloy. Oplot is miles ahead, yes. Type 85 was made after "studying" T-72 according to some sources, I wouldn't be so sure about the T-54.

Actually, there are only minute differences between modern DU and WHA but WHA is still better against modern SLERA combined with Composite or linear shaped charge ERA (Nozh, Duplet) combined with Composite.

And Why wouldn't you be sure.

The Type 85 tank is a modifications of
the Type 80, which was in turn based
on the Soviet T-54, with an improved
turret changed from cast design to
welded design.

Type 85 Main Battle Tank

Infact the 1st T-72 aquired by China from Iran was from Iran-Iraq war and in late 80s by the time Type 85 already had export orders and was rolling out of factories.

The Chinese abandoned the design in favour of a new one when they saw it was Already much inferior to monkey models of T-72 like asad babli and lion of bagdad tanks.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Al khalid's FCS and internal electronics is most probably superior to t-80ud being a newer design.
Gun is same.ammo is same.Little difference in firepower.

Not really... and not even the gun is same... the older gun was a modified KBA... and now replaced by an indigenous gun which is claimed to be superior...

In protection i give little edge to t-80ud IF it has t-84 oplot turret with welded composite armour.

I have reponded to you earlier yes T-80UD has the same turret as T-84.... But AKs armour is superior...

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

And Why wouldn't you be sure.


Type 85 Main Battle Tank

Infact the 1st T-72 aquired by China from Iran was from Iran-Iraq war and in late 80s by the time Type 85 already had export orders and was rolling out of factories.

The Chinese abandoned the design in favour of a new one when they saw it was Already much inferior to monkey models of T-72 like asad babli and lion of bagdad tanks.

Haha.. yes PA used Type-85IIIAP...which has been upgraded with western avionics and sights etc... and was first produced in 91.