Sukhoi Su-35 vs Dassault Rafale

[bigzgvr4]

better chances then a super Su-30 mki because that is what we are comapring here
with the rafeal

Su35BM has more chances to win an A2A Combat .

 

[Ayush]

su 35 is the better one no doubt.
also this makes our rafale deal(soon to be) less significant.

 

[honorfreedom]

apsolutly Su-35BM.

All main characteristics is on side Su-35BM

-Range
-Speed
-Maneuveribility
-Payload

Better comparision is between MiG-35 and Rafale.

 

[sancho]

But it was said that super mki will use upgrde engin with 20% to 30% extra power. And engine life will increase 2000hr to 6000. Is this news war true or rumors?


@sancho, @ANPP can you clear my doubts please.
thanks

Rumors so far, there were very different reports about the engines. Some said the Su35 engines would come, some said the current AL 31 would be upgraded with increased thrust, some didn't even mentioned the engine at all, so we have to wait and see.

apsolutly Su-35BM.

All main characteristics is on side Su-35BM

-Range
-Speed
-Maneuveribility
-Payload

Better comparision is between MiG-35 and Rafale.

That are paperspecs and that alone doesn't tell you anything, btw on paper the Su 35 is given with 8t payload, Rafale with 9.5t but as said, that doesn't tell you anything as long as you don't look deeper into the specs and capabilities.

 

[indian_foxhound]

Rumors so far, there were very different reports about the engines. Some said the Su35 engines would come, some said the current AL 31 would be upgraded with increased thrust, some didn't even mentioned the engine at all, so we have to wait and see.




That are paperspecs and that alone doesn't tell you anything, btw on paper the Su 35 is given with 8t payload, Rafale with 9.5t but as said, that doesn't tell you anything as long as you don't look deeper into the specs and capabilities.

thanks.
So what will be round of specs according to you of super30mki... is super 30 will able to match su35bm??

 

[DrSomnath999]

In short...

Su 35:
- radar detection
- range
- weapon load
- most likely SC speed


Rafale F3+ latest with AESA:
- passive detection
- avionics
- weapons
- low speed maneuverability

u missed the most important one i.e RCS & survivavilty in intense electronic warfare environment where Rafale gets the upperhand.


1)SU 35 IRBIS E is powerful but lacks LPI as it isPESA but as u have said Rafale F3 is having aesa but in some website /M.P forum it had
been stated the RBE 2 aesa radar is going to have twice the detection range of Rafale's Rbe pesa radar against a fighter size
aircraft target.How authentic it is needs to be seen??

so may be RBE 2 aesa radar may be having same detection range

2) range :

true SU 35 is known to have more range with drop tanks but Rafale with 3 external drop tanks can out range as it range without drop tanks is 3700km ,u should note how many drop tanks can Su 35 carry

3) weapon load
almost same

14 hard points for rafale but what about su 35 u better check

& rafale more optimized for carrying strategic cruise missiles than SU 35 as it can carry upto 3 cruise missiles like APCHE /scalp

what about su 35??

4)SC speed

hmm it true it has more mach speed & also known to have supercruise & with TVC i think it is the only visible advantage i assume

but what about it's IR signature in comparision to rafale 's engine

 

[indian_foxhound]

u missed the most important one i.e RCS & survivavilty in intense electronic warfare environment where Rafale gets the upperhand.


1)SU 35 IRBIS E is powerful but lacks LPI as it isPESA but as u have said Rafale F3 is having aesa but in some website /M.P forum it had
been stated the RBE 2 aesa radar is going to have twice the detection range of Rafale's Rbe pesa radar against a fighter size
aircraft target.How authentic it is needs to be seen??

so may be RBE 2 aesa radar may be having same detection range

2) range :

true SU 35 is known to have more range with drop tanks but Rafale with 3 external drop tanks can out range as it range without drop tanks is 3700km ,u should note how many drop tanks can Su 35 carry

3) weapon load
almost same

14 hard points for rafale but what about su 35 u better check

& rafale more optimized for carrying strategic cruise missiles than SU 35 as it can carry upto 3 cruise missiles like APCHE /scalp

what about su 35??

4)SC speed

hmm it true it has more mach speed & also known to have supercruise & with TVC i think it is the only visible advantage i assume

but what about it's IR signature in comparision to rafale 's engine

Pay load is not same. Rafale got 9.5t n su35 got 8t. Which mean more heavy warheads. And can you tell me which one is more economical to operate

 

[sancho]

thanks.
So what will be round of specs according to you of super30mki... is super 30 will able to match su35bm??

Nobody on a forum can tell you any specs of the Super 30 yet, what we know is, the airfames will be overhauled to extend the life, it's radar and avionic will get upgrade, the weaponpackage will be increased and many things more, but the details are still not fixed.
All I can give you apart from this is my unprofessional guess, which is, that the Super 30 can be superior in certain fields, if it gets AESA radar for example, that the cockpit displays and systems will come from Indian suppliers and that a 2 x screen layout like the Su 35 has is likely for the Super 30 too, that the EW sensors and jammers might be better as well (mainly Indian, but with credible help from international partners), that we will reduce the RCS with the addition of composites and RAM coatings, but with the size of the MKI and the canards, it won't be at the same level as the Su 35 and that we will add a lot of Indian weapons in future (Sudharshan LGB, Astra BVR, Brahmos and Nirbhay, Helina is likely too).

So all in all, it will be close in general, can be superior in radar and avionics, but might be less maneuverable and might have less range and speed.

 

[sancho]

u missed the most important one i.e RCS & survivavilty in intense electronic warfare environment where Rafale gets the upperhand.

Actually I didn't, I said that Rafale will have better passive detection and avionics capabilities, while I left out the RCS on purpose, because it's mainly speculation and if you compare both, you have to do it on equal basis. That means if we talk about a Su 35 with full fuel capacity, we have to talk about a Rafale with 3 x 2000l external fuel tanks. Do you think it still would have the lower RCS? I have my doubts and since I can't confirm it, I chose to leave it out and say nothing on that point.

been stated the RBE 2 aesa radar is going to have twice the detection range of Rafale's Rbe pesa radar against a fighter size
aircraft target.How authentic it is needs to be seen??

so may be RBE 2 aesa radar may be having same detection range

There are several reliable sources that confirmed this, basically you can say that the IRBIS PESA has twice the range of the RBE 2 AESA in Rafale, which have a lot to do with the size and power of the Russian radar. So Rafale might not be able to detect the Su 35 actively, but possibly passively with it's advanced RWRs.

2) range :

true SU 35 is known to have more range with drop tanks but Rafale with 3 external drop tanks can out range as it range without drop tanks is 3700km ,u should note how many drop tanks can Su 35 carry

That's not correct, that's the ferry range of Rafale including 3 x tanks:

Ferry range: 4,500

with 2 х PTB-2000 external tanks, km

KNAAZ*- Production - Su-35

3) weapon load
almost same

14 hard points for rafale but what about su 35 u better check

That's what I said in one of the earlier posts, don't look at the paperspecs only, look deeper to see the differences!

Of the 14 hardpoints 2 are meant for LDP or reece pods, with maxim fuel capacity to equal even the internal fuel capacity of the SU 35, 2 wingstations and 2 centerline stations will be occupied, which leaves only 8 hardpoints and 4.7t payload for weapons.
The Su35 instead with full internal fuel will remain with 10 to 12 hardpoints (depending on ECM pods) and 8t payload, that's why Rafale has superior payload on paper, but the Flanker has superior weapon load in reality.

& rafale more optimized for carrying strategic cruise missiles than SU 35 as it can carry upto 3 cruise missiles like APCHE /scalp

what about su 35??

Up to 5 x Kh 59MK (930Kg)
Up to 3 x KAB 1500 (1500Kg)

Rafale with 2 fuel tanks only:

Up to 3 x Scalp (1100Kg)
Up to 3 x GBU 24 (907Kg)

but what about it's IR signature in comparision to rafale 's engine

That is one of Rafales high points again, the low observability.

 

[indian_foxhound]

1. Normal take-off
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg

2. MTOW
* Su-35: 34,500 kg

*Rafale: 24,500 kg

3. Internal Fuel
* Su-35: 11,500 kg

* Rafale: 4,750 kg

4. Maximal Payload
* Su-35: 8,000 kg

* Rafale: 9,500 kg

5. Maximal Speed, 11,000 m
* Su-35: 2.25 Mach

* Rafale: 1.80 Mach+ (2.00 Mach)

6. Maximal speed, 200 m
* Su-35: 1,400 km/hr

* Rafale: 750 kts

7. Climb rate
*Su-35: 280 m/sec+, 1,000 m


* Rafale: 305 m/sec+, sea-level

8. Operational Altitude
* Su-35: 59,000 fts

* Rafale: 55,000 fts

9. Ferry range

* Su-35: 4,500 km (Internal Fuel + 2000L
tanks*2)

* Rafale: > 2,100 km (Internal Fuel)


10. Acceleration
* Su-35: 13.8 secs from 600 km/hr to 1,100 km/
hr, and 8 secs from 1,100 km/hr to 1,300 km/hr
with 50% internal fuel, standard A-A
configuration, and height of 1,000 m
* Rafale: around 20 seconds from 300 km/hr to
1,000 km/hr at low altitude.

11. Normal upper G-limit
* Su-35: +9.0G

* Rafale: +9.0G

12. T/W ratio of normal take-off AB / Max.
Mil. * Su-35: 1.10 ~ 1.15 / 0.69 ~ 0.70

* Rafale: 1.02 ~ 1.03 / 0.68 ~ 0.69

13. Take-off with standard A-A configuration
* Su-35: 400 to 450 m
* Rafale: 400 m

14. Landing
* Su-35: 650 m with the help of braking and
parachute
* Rafale: 400 m with the help of braking only

15. Radar's range
* Su-35: Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the
range of 350 to 400 km away --> 307 ~ 351.
* Rafale: Detecting target of RCS = 5 m2 at the
range of 130 ~ 148 km away --> Detecting target
of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 114 to 130 km
away theoretically --> 100 ~ 114.

16. Maximal horizontal scanning angle of
Radar

* Su-35: +/-120 degrees


* Rafale: +/- 60 degrees

17. Capability of multiple target engagement
* Su-35: Tracking 30 and engaging 8.
* Rafale: Tracking 40 and engaging 4 to 6.

18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of
range being detected
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~
11.89
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~
6.04

19. Su-35 v.s Rafale
* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect /
track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to
91 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect /
track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to
142 km away in head to head engagement.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

turbo fan will be upgraded and other tweaks for 20% more power and greater service life of engine.
radar will be upgraded in two stages, first stage will be adding more modes and software updates, and after that pesa modules will be replaced with aesa, for that we have to wait for pakfa radar developments because they are likely to take results from there.
nothing is signed as of now, so final picture is not clear.
read takeoff mag 2013 Feb for more.

 

[Narodnaya]

apples nd oranges friend. direct comparison of kind you made withot qualifcatioins make it difficult for complete picture be understood. they have different roles and a competent airforce would focus on the specialty of each's role in their overall defence stratgy, rather than listd(unmodfied) specs.

 

[The_magnificent]

How the ground attack cabability of rafale n su35 are compared.

 

[bigzgvr4]

rafale is better it uses nato Weapons But if Su-35 uses chinese weapons then the su-35 will be better given they would put the same electro optical pod they have on j-20 on the su-35

 

[The_magnificent]

rafale is better it uses nato Weapons But if Su-35 uses chinese weapons then the su-35 will be better given they would put the same electro optical pod they have on j-20 on the su-35

Your post sound like Chinese have better weapons and sensors thn france . I guess thats why pakistan wanted to replace chinese avionics with French which was cancelled because of India factor