Sukhoi Su-35 vs Dassault Rafale

[DrSomnath999]

Well 1st of all sorry for the late reply & i am quite busy now adays

That means if we talk about a Su 35 with full fuel capacity, we have to talk about a Rafale with 3 x 2000l external fuel tanks. Do you think it still would have the lower RCS? I have my doubts and since I can't confirm it, I chose to leave it out and say nothing on that point.

see Su 35 with full fuel capacity which if includes only internal fuel no external fuel tanks then it makes some sense .

But still Su 35 has bigger RCS despite having no fuel tanks not to forget external weapon s load

& rafale with lesser rcs & also thanks to it's SPECTRA EWS can still survive with or without fuel tanks & not to forget Rafale still has CFT configuration also

There are several reliable sources that confirmed this, basically you can say that the IRBIS PESA has twice the range of the RBE 2 AESA in Rafale, which have a lot to do with the size and power of the Russian radar. So Rafale might not be able to detect the Su 35 actively, but possibly passively with it's advanced RWRs.

well it 's true it has more detection range than RBE 2 aesa radar
see IRBIS E radar has a range of 350-400km aganist a 3m2 target with capabilty of tracking 30 target at a time
meanwhile RBE 2 aesa radar has twice the detection range of previous pesa radar that it 130-140 km against 3 m2 target so RBE 2 aesa radar has a range of 260-280km range

which makes it lesser range than IRBIS e radar but no way double than RBE 2 aesa radar
& not to forget it can track 40 targets at a single time & having AESA array

Rafale can detect SU 35 actively as it is not a stealth plane but yes like u said in ur post it can also detect it passively through SPECTRA provided it has turned on it's pesa radar

That's not correct, that's the ferry range of Rafale including 3 x tanks:

OOPs sorry for that siily mistake

though it can compensate that by aerial refuelling or buddy to buddy rfuelling but yes Su 35 has the advantage

That's what I said in one of the earlier posts, don't look at the paperspecs only, look deeper to see the differences!

Of the 14 hardpoints 2 are meant for LDP or reece pods, with maxim fuel capacity to equal even the internal fuel capacity of the SU 35, 2 wingstations and 2 centerline stations will be occupied, which leaves only 8 hardpoints and 4.7t payload for weapons.
The Su35 instead with full internal fuel will remain with 10 to 12 hardpoints (depending on ECM pods) and 8t payload, that's why Rafale has superior payload on paper, but the Flanker has superior weapon load in reality.

well one should understand that payload depends upon mission profile though i understand & appreciate your POV
But i want to state something

what would a RECO ng pod do in a strategic bombing mission & 3 drop tanks do in aerial interception mission

though it is correct SU 35 has an advantage over Rafale having a greater internal fuel capacity than rafale & rafale
on the other hand has to have 2 drop tanks installed on it's hard point & su 35 on the other hand has 2 extra pods
in comparion to rafale due to this advantage

i hope they install CFT in future to compensate this thing

Up to 5 x Kh 59MK (930Kg)
Up to 3 x KAB 1500 (1500Kg)

Rafale with 2 fuel tanks only:

Up to 3 x Scalp (1100Kg)
Up to 3 x GBU 24 (907Kg)




.

well u mentioned
KH 59Mk which is comparitively less in dimension & weight in comparision to SCALp , i think KLUB cruise missile would be more appropiate & su 35 can carry maximum 3 klub missiles

RAFALe can also carry 5 scalp if they install CFT or else 3 looks more realistic for the time being

 

[DrSomnath999]

Pay load is not same. Rafale got 9.5t n su35 got 8t. Which mean more heavy warheads. And can you tell me which one is more economical to operate

refer sancho 's POV

& su 35 would be more economical

1. Normal take-off
* Su-35: 25,300 kg
* Rafale: 15,000 kg

2. MTOW
* Su-35: 34,500 kg

*Rafale: 24,500 kg

3. Internal Fuel
* Su-35: 11,500 kg

* Rafale: 4,750 kg

4. Maximal Payload
* Su-35: 8,000 kg

* Rafale: 9,500 kg

5. Maximal Speed, 11,000 m
* Su-35: 2.25 Mach

* Rafale: 1.80 Mach+ (2.00 Mach)

6. Maximal speed, 200 m
* Su-35: 1,400 km/hr

* Rafale: 750 kts

7. Climb rate
*Su-35: 280 m/sec+, 1,000 m


* Rafale: 305 m/sec+, sea-level

8. Operational Altitude
* Su-35: 59,000 fts

* Rafale: 55,000 fts

9. Ferry range

* Su-35: 4,500 km (Internal Fuel + 2000L
tanks*2)

* Rafale: > 2,100 km (Internal Fuel)


10. Acceleration
* Su-35: 13.8 secs from 600 km/hr to 1,100 km/
hr, and 8 secs from 1,100 km/hr to 1,300 km/hr
with 50% internal fuel, standard A-A
configuration, and height of 1,000 m
* Rafale: around 20 seconds from 300 km/hr to
1,000 km/hr at low altitude.

11. Normal upper G-limit
* Su-35: +9.0G

* Rafale: +9.0G

12. T/W ratio of normal take-off AB / Max.
Mil. * Su-35: 1.10 ~ 1.15 / 0.69 ~ 0.70

* Rafale: 1.02 ~ 1.03 / 0.68 ~ 0.69

13. Take-off with standard A-A configuration
* Su-35: 400 to 450 m
* Rafale: 400 m

14. Landing
* Su-35: 650 m with the help of braking and
parachute
* Rafale: 400 m with the help of braking only

15. Radar's range
* Su-35: Detecting target of RCS = 3m2 at the
range of 350 to 400 km away --> 307 ~ 351.
* Rafale: Detecting target of RCS = 5 m2 at the
range of 130 ~ 148 km away --> Detecting target
of RCS = 3m2 at the range of 114 to 130 km
away theoretically --> 100 ~ 114.

16. Maximal horizontal scanning angle of
Radar

* Su-35: +/-120 degrees


* Rafale: +/- 60 degrees

17. Capability of multiple target engagement
* Su-35: Tracking 30 and engaging 8.
* Rafale: Tracking 40 and engaging 4 to 6.

18. Frontal minimal RCS / Ratio of RCS / Ratio of
range being detected
* Su-35: 1.0 ~ 3.0 m2 --> 6666 ~ 20000 --> 9.03 ~
11.89
* Rafale: 0.1 ~ 0.2 m2 --> 666 ~ 1332 --> 5.08 ~
6.04

19. Su-35 v.s Rafale
* Theoretically, Rafale shall be able to detect /
track Su-35 at the range of 87 to 130 km / 52 to
91 km away in head to head engagement.

* Theoretically, Su-35 shall be able to detect /
track Rafale at the range of 150 to 203 km / 90 to
142 km away in head to head engagement.

PLZ GIVE CREDIT FROM WHERE U HAVE COPIED THIS

I KNOW FROM WHERE U HAVE COPIED THIS BUT YOU SHOULD MENTION THIS BY YOURSELF

REGARDS

 

[sancho]

But still Su 35 has bigger RCS despite having no fuel tanks not to forget external weapon s load

Consider a Su 35 in A2A config, with 6 AAMs for CAP, Rafale in the same role would carry 6 AAMs and 2 x 1250l fuel tanks. So even if the Rafale has a lower clean RCS, the question is how much will it increase in the same role, because
of the fuel tanks.
As I said, I don't want to speculate on figures but, my guess is, the difference won't be that much anymore and then the IRBIS E will have a clear advantage in head on engagements. However, I don't say Rafale wouldn't have any chance, because it's biggest advantage is not the radar, but the passive detection capabilities!
The radar of any fighter is limited to a certain field of view, the sensors of SPECTRA instead offer long range 360° detection, so a Rafale in passive mode will be to detect the IRBIS E at long range too, if it detects the other first, it will manage to stay out of the IRBIS E FOV and will have a clear advantage.

not to forget Rafale still has CFT configuration also

If I would be in charge for this procurement, I would definitely buy them with CFTs, I'm not and currently they are not available, so let us not speculate here.

that it 130-140 km against 3 m2 target

That might be the range agains 5m² targets, but the PESA wasn't really that good, infact the difference to Mirage 2000 radars wasn't that much. The PESA was a better technology, but in the small nose of the Rafale wasn't able to provide long detection ranges and is often stated with around 100Km against 3m² targets and the AESA is up to twice as good as that. Anyway, it doesn't matter much, since it's still far lower thant the IRBIS E.

RAFALe can also carry 5 scalp if they install CFT or else 3 looks more realistic for the time being

On paper yes, practically it doesn't make sense with so less fuel (2300l only)


Bottom line is, the Rafale although only a small medium class fighter, it offers excellent strike capabilties, but the Flanker series remains to be the benchmark here.
The IRBIS E is an excellent radar, but Rafale has the capabilities to counter it, while it's weapons and countermeasures are better, so even in A2A it will more more than capable.
This is really a battle on top level, of 2 highly capable plattforms!

 

[DrSomnath999]

@danger007
u would get your answer in this thread

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ny-serious-security-threat-indias-rafale.html

@DrSomnath999+, @sancho: what are the advantages Rafale offers over su-35... why we moved to rafale instead Su-35?

u would get your answer in this thread

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian...ny-serious-security-threat-indias-rafale.html