Sukhoi PAK-FA / FGFA: Updates,News & Discussions

[Gessler]

I am still not convinced on the polish.....ram has still not been applied fully.
The R&D has been reduced to 6 from 11 billion proposed.

But this is a good product for us,we have no other option.

We haven't seen the LRIP yet. Besides, RAM is not applied all over the jet (that was back in F117 days), it's only applied where the reflection is difficult to mask with shaping and/or saw-toothed edges. Like corners & wing leading-edges.

Ruble has devalued a lot. Prices might look lesser in USD terms. Even from that 6bn, India will be paying only 3bn, rest will come from Russia.

Su-57 is the only logical replacement of Su-30MKI.

 

[he-man]

We haven't seen the LRIP yet. Besides, RAM is not applied all over the jet (that was back in F117 days), it's only applied where the reflection is difficult to mask with shaping and/or saw-toothed edges. Like corners & wing leading-edges.

Ruble has devalued a lot. Prices might look lesser in USD terms. Even from that 6bn, India will be paying only 3bn, rest will come from Russia.

Su-57 is the only logical replacement of Su-30MKI.

Earlier the total budget was 11.
Both countries have cut the expenses which is especially stupid on indian side.........could have invested more and followed up the components in amca.

We will do a parallel research for amca....another disaster in the making.

Both projects will run in parallel.
For infrastructure : FGFA will use Su-30MKI Production lines while AMCA will use Tejas Production line which will get free or partially free after 2025.
For funds: AMCA is under development phase and earlier this year got funds to produce full scale model , which is under construction at Hyderabad.
For avionics: AMCA will use many techs which will be Jointly developed for FGFA.
For powerplant: by the end of next year, it'll be cleared that Kaveri met its success or not. If fails it'll get GE-F414 as per plan.

I think everything is at its place

Nope.......u will see in 7-8 years .
No sane country produces so many fighters at the same time.....not even RUSSIA or USA.
AMCA is simply not needed yet,invest there post 2030 when enough pakfa,rafale and lca are there.

Whats the rush?

 

[X_Killer]

.
Nope.......u will see in 7-8 years .
No sane country produces so many fighters at the same time.....not even RUSSIA or USA.
AMCA is simply not needed yet,invest there post 2030 when enough pakfa,rafale and lca are there.

Whats the rush?

Don't get confused, The time shared by me for the first flight.

US produced f-16 at average rate of 30 units/year with peak rate of 59 units /year. Along with F-15 at 24 units/year & f-18 at 18 units/year. Trainers and transport aircrafts are not included.
India produced su-30mki at 16 units/year and Tejas will be produced at 16+ units/year after 2018.

If you have your own components producing chain than you might not need to wait for anything from other.

This not called as rush, this is known as pre planning.

Su-57 is the only logical replacement of Su-30MKI.

I don't think so.
Su-57 will help IAF to increase the number of squadrons from 33 to 42-45.
But AMCA will replace jags and migs

 

[he-man]

Don't get confused, The time shared by me for the first flight.

US produced f-16 at average rate of 30 units/year with peak rate of 59 units /year. Along with F-15 at 24 units/year & f-18 at 18 units/year. Trainers and transport aircrafts are not included.
India produced su-30mki at 16 units/year and Tejas will be produced at 16+ units/year after 2018.

If you have your own components producing chain than you might not need to wait for anything from other.

This not called as rush, this is known as pre planning.

We are no USA.....first part.
Second,we dont have a big enough research budget.........what we will do is import all the components like in lca.
Why not just concentrate on pakfa and produce the components meanwhile.

Focus on AMCA later on post 2030.

In case u start writing about indigenous components in mki or lca.....dont bother,i know.The components mean radar,maws,rwr's,engines,hud's ,helmet's,seats etc.We havent done shit in that regard and looking at the planning we never will.

Quite simply we will never have funds to invest on the components indivisually if we keep on this.

But AMCA will replace jags and migs

AMCA is supposed to be stealth.......LCA is the replacement of migs(21 and remaining (if) 27) and jaguars.
Most of all AMCA is a myth at the moment.

 

[Glass]

This jet has been officially named Su-57.

So no longer t50 ?

 

[Gessler]

Earlier the total budget was 11.
Both countries have cut the expenses which is especially stupid on indian side.........could have invested more and followed up the components in amca.

We invest as much as is necessary to get what we want - which is production-engineering ToT (so that we can make it in India) and any requested IAF-specific modifications to Su-57 design.

Most of the equipment (radars, EW, etc.) has already been developed by Russian money alone. Even the engine development is progressing.

The value of Ruble V/S Dollar has fluctuated wildly after the sanctions and there was heavy devaluation so that should be kept in mind when calculating expense in USD.

Russia doesn't pay it's own companies in USD. It pays in Rubles.

We will do a parallel research for amca....another disaster in the making.

As you said yourself, AMCA is a paperplane at this point. HAL/DRDO/ADA has enough on it's hands with Tejas Mk.1 and Mk.1A...let alone Mk.2 - it's pointless to even worry about AMCA at this stage.

I don't think so.
Su-57 will help IAF to increase the number of squadrons from 33 to 42-45.
But AMCA will replace jags and migs

So what plane do you think will replace MKIs (the first batches of which will need replacements in the early 2030s)?

LCA will replace MiG-21s
Rafale will replace MiG-27s and Jaguars
Su-57 will replace Su-30MKI (and probably MiG-29 too)

AMCA (if and when it comes) will replace the upgraded Mirage 2000-5 Mk.2s

So no longer t50 ?

The test prototypes that exist till now (latest is T-50-9) are still called that.

But when the plane enters production and joins Russian AF, it will be called Su-57. Just like how the Flanker was called T-10 in prototype stage and called Su-27 when it entered service.

 

[Glass]

ah interesting. When will the first su 57 enter RuAF and IAF ?

 

[Gessler]

ah interesting. When will the first su 57 enter RuAF and IAF ?

RuAF will take first Su-57 LRIP (batch contains total 12) in 2018 I think.

After 2020, production of Su-57 Phase-II will begin with several improvements, like addition of Izdeliye-30 engines.

The first prototypes of HAL PMF (Indian version) will appear around 2020. Entering IAF service will be around 2024-2025. This will be of a Phase-II standard.

 

[X_Killer]

@Gessler
Su-30MKI was Inducted in 2002 and will serve for atleast 40years. So please correct your records.

AMCA is supposed to be stealth.......LCA is the replacement of migs(21 and remaining (if) 27) and jaguars.
Most of all AMCA is a myth at the moment.

AMCA will be the replacement for Jaguar and Mig-29's which has phase out schedule after 2030.

We are no USA.....first part.
Second,we dont have a big enough research budget.........what we will do is import all the components like in lca.
Why not just concentrate on pakfa and produce the components meanwhile.

Focus on AMCA later on post 2030.

In case u start writing about indigenous components in mki or lca.....dont bother,i know.The components mean radar,maws,rwr's,engines,hud's ,helmet's,seats etc.We havent done shit in that regard and looking at the planning we never will.

This was my reply when you said no-one has Capability to produce jets at such rate. Don't get confused.

The components mean radar,maws,rwr's,engines,hud's ,helmet's,seats etc.We havent done shit in that regard and looking at the planning we never will.

DRDO already developed Uttam AESA which is confirmed for Tejas Mk1A, Engine is in final stage, MAWS & RWR already developed by DARE (For SUPER SUKHOI Upgrade), and remaining things will get off the shelf and from FGFA.

 

[Gessler]

@Gessler
Su-30MKI was Inducted in 2002 and will serve for atleast 40years. So please correct your records.

And what plane do you think will replace them when they retire? That was the question.

 

[X_Killer]

And what plane do you think will replace them when they retire? That was the question.

Right now its 2017 and Su-30MKI will phased out after 2042.
It's quite earlier to predict it.

 

[Gessler]

Right now its 2017 and Su-30MKI will phased out after 2042.
It's quite earlier to predict it.

It's not quite early if you know the choices we have - or are likely to have.

Su-57 is the only 5th gen air superiority fighter on the horizon. AMCA, even if it comes into being by that time, will be a medium-class swingrole fighter.

And I'm pretty sure the earliest batches of MKIs will last in service till early 2040s. Mid-30s most likely.

 

[X_Killer]

It's not quite early if you know the choices we have - or are likely to have.

Su-57 is the only 5th gen air superiority fighter on the horizon. AMCA, even if it comes into being by that time, will be a medium-class swingrole fighter.

And I'm pretty sure the earliest batches of MKIs will last in service till early 2040s. Mid-30s most likely.

Su-30MKI may get structural refit to serve until 2050 as we are doing with our jags.

Anyways, once if AMCA will met enormous success than it'll pave way for another project either on our own or under a JV.

 

[ejaz007]

Indian Air Force wants out of fighter program with Russia
By: Vivek Raghuvanshi   2 days ago
2K77

A T-50 prototype for the Su-57 flies at the MAKS 2011 air show. (Alex Beltyukov via WIkipedia Commons)

NEW DELHI – The ambitious $10 billion Indo-Russian program for joint development and production of fifth generation fighter aircraft, or FGFA, faces a new serious hurdle, as the Indian Air Force demands a discontinuation of the project.

Senior IAF leadership recently expressed apprehension to the Ministry of Defence, claiming the proposed FGFA program with Russia does not meet desired requirements like U.S. F-35 fighter type capabilities, disclosed a senior IAF official. That official added, that “IAF is not keen to continue with the program.”

The proposed FGFA program does not meet desired stealth and cross section features compared to a F-35 fighter, the official explained, thus major structural changes are needed that cannot be met in the existing Russian prototypes.



FGFA also does not have modular engine concept, making maintenance and serviceability of the fleet expensive and troublesome. A second service official said the modular engine concept is required for the fleet serviceability and availability of FGFA aircrafts at short notice, since it can be done by the user itself.

Russians have offered non-modular engines for FGFA and its maintenance and other relations can only be handled by the manufacturer.

Russian Embassy diplomats here were unavailable for comments.

Vaijinder K Thakur, retired IAF squadron leader and defense analyst disagreement with the Air Force assessment of capability, saying that the current Russian FGFA prototype, known as Su-57, features the AL-41F1 engine. But the production variant of FGFA would be fitted with the Product 30 engine which is 30 percent lighter, features improved thrust, and has better fuel efficiency and fewer moving parts. That results in improved reliability and 30 percent lower life-cycle cost, Thakur said.

Without having operated U.S. fighters, the IAF is hardly in a position to pronounce judgment on the comparative long-term operating costs of Russian and U.S. fighters, Thakur added.

https://www.defensenews.com/air/201...rce-wants-out-of-fighter-program-with-russia/

 

[Hindustani78]

//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/61189233.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

NEW DELHI: State-run aerospace behemoth Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) today strongly pitched for going ahead with the fifth-generation fighter jet project .

HAL Chairman and Managing Director T Suvarna Raju said the multi-billion dollar co-development project will be an opportunity as no country has ever offered such critical technology to India.

"We are still hopeful. It is an opportunity for the industry as well as for the country. This is an opportunity for us to go in for this kind of (high) technology which has not been offered to us by any other country

"The impact of the project will be very positive. FGFA (Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft) is my dream, I am hopeful about it," Raju told reporters on the sidelines of an event.

Raju also said that HAL was looking at utilising the Sukhoi manufacturing facility for carrying out maintenance of the fleet as well as there is no future order for the jet.

************
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...any-strings-attached/articleshow/61190714.cms

The Indian Air Force will start the process soon to acquire a fleet of single engine fighter jets

At the event, the 50th AL31FP engine, manufactured from raw materials by Sukhoi engine division of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (Koraput) was handed over to the Indian Air Force as part of the celebration of the 70th year of India- Russia ties.

"The AL31FP engine powers Su30 MKI jets and is manufactured from raw material stage at the HAL Koraput," said HAL Chairman and Managing Director T Suvarna Raju.

AL-31FP is a high temperature turbojet by-pass engine of modular design. A specific feature of AL-31FP is an axi-symmetric vectoring nozzle with a thrust vector angle of ±15° in the vertical plane providing super maneuverability of the aircraft. The vectoring nozzle control is integrated with the engine control system. AL-31FP engines ensure stable operation in all available evolutions of the aircraft in super maneuverability modes. AL-31FP engines power advanced multipurpose Su-30 MKI fighters of the 4+ generation