Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[SBD-3]

Lets keep the patriotism aside : i really think the current version of JF-17 doesn't stand a chance against MKI,The only chances of survival will be a PAF pilot in the cockpit:Once a missile is shot by MKI it's the brilliance & timely decisions required to tackle it.

do you think PAF would be dumb about it????? or thinking that its pilots would always do the Job.....You know why PAF is looking for M-88?.....its not always about the thurust here is some info on M-88

The first production M88-2 engine was delivered in 1996. Today, it powers the various Rafale versions flown by the French air force andnavy. It is particularly suited to low-altitude penetration and high-altitude interception missions.
Light and compact, the M88-2 integrates the latest technologies: single-piece bladed compressor disks (blisks), on-polluting combustion chamber, single crystal highpressure turbine blades, powder metallurgy disks, ceramic coatings, composite materials,
etc. The use of 3D calculation codes has resulted in global optimization of the aerodynamic design of flowpaths and the thermal and mechanical behavior of parts. Thanks to its fully redundant
digital control system, the engine displays exceptional controllability and handling characteristics, making it ideal for the multirole
missions of air forces. Its modular design ensures optimum operational availability and great maintenance flexibility.
Furthermore, the M88 incorporates the latest maintenance concepts as failure diagnosis aid or high level of aircraft/engine integration.
Snecma continuously invests in Research & Technology to meet its customers' specific requirements, resulting in regular upgrades to
the M88-2, for example based on the ECO demonstrator. In 2008 Snecma offered the "TCO Pack" to decrease the engine's total cost
of ownership. Subsequent improvements could increase the M88's thrust to the 20,000 lb class.

furthermore, in a rafale info supplement i also read that It is optimized for lower IR sigs as well...So probably thunder would stay underpowered but engine efficiency will increase

 

[ambidex]

Can someone please elaborate how quickly PAF will be integrating JF 17 and others (F16) with SAAB and Chinese AWACS.
Lets not forget that AWACS would be force multiplier and will make JF17 a potent AC against any adversity. Without such integration success of JF against any 4+ gen AC would be some what narrow and staggering.
To my understanding SAAB is going to link F16 and JF is going to be linked with would be Chinese AWACS. Please correct me if i am wrong.

 

[SBD-3]

Can someone please elaborate how quickly PAF will be integrating JF 17 and others (F16) with SAAB and Chinese AWACS.

"as soon as possible"

Lets not forget that AWACS would be force multiplier and will make JF17 a potent AC against any adversity. Without such integration success of JF against any 4+ gen AC would be some what narrow and staggering.

do you mean JFx AWACS= 2 JFs or 4th genx AWACS=4++ gen

ok fun apart......do some research or simple go throw AWACS thread in detail....you ll find all the answers

 

[ambidex]

So you think i haven't done my home work before my post. ha ha good on you, i am happy i have make some tense soul laugh.

 

[SBD-3]

So you think i haven't done my home work before my post. ha ha good on you, i am happy i have make some tense soul laugh.

I dont think.......I believe.....

 

[ambidex]

Ok i will give it another go...i was acting smart and placing a trap...never mind.

Everyone here has agreed upon that JF17's comparison with MKI is not a balance comparison. MKI is more potent platform then JF17. However we have also discussed that JF17 can hit MKI if it is equipped with BVR missiles and operated with better doctrine and by highly skilled PAF. In one on one fight i must tell you that MKI with its truck load of missiles will not sit ideal after firing BVRM but will also make JF17 a victim by firing IR seekers as well. MKI radar has more range then JF17 we all know so JF17 need early warning and very (optimistic) real time updated by your SAAB birds and in future from Chinese AWACS procurements (in pipe or in limbo you know better then me).

My view on all this comparing thread is that without real time updates and early warning JF17's success will be compromised. How Pakistan will integrate F16 with Chinese AWACS is a catch here. Furthermore your pilots may be skilled with F16 but exposure to this new baby will take time for them have a feel and test its limits.
Regards.

 

[Myth_buster_1]

new video must see

 

[amalakas]

Ok i will give it another go...i was acting smart and placing a trap...never mind.

Everyone here has agreed upon that JF17's comparison with MKI is not a balance comparison. MKI is more potent platform then JF17. However we have also discussed that JF17 can hit MKI if it is equipped with BVR missiles and operated with better doctrine and by highly skilled PAF.

Well under the same reasoning .. a modernised F-4 phantom can take down almost anything that flies right now (bar F22) ..

even better, an AWACS armed with ultra long range AA missile (if such a thing existed) could take down an entire squadron of any type of planes from 400km + ....

Nothing is as simple as we make it sound on these fora......

That is why pilots must go through such rigorous training programs..
It is not how many Gs the missile can pull.. it has more to do with how well one knows how to use the missile..

 

[Myth_buster_1]

Ok i will give it another go...i was acting smart and placing a trap...never mind.

Everyone here has agreed upon that JF17's comparison with MKI is not a balance comparison. MKI is more potent platform then JF17. However we have also discussed that JF17 can hit MKI if it is equipped with BVR missiles and operated with better doctrine and by highly skilled PAF. In one on one fight i must tell you that MKI with its truck load of missiles will not sit ideal after firing BVRM but will also make JF17 a victim by firing IR seekers as well. MKI radar has more range then JF17 we all know so JF17 need early warning and very (optimistic) real time updated by your SAAB birds and in future from Chinese AWACS procurements (in pipe or in limbo you know better then me).

My view on all this comparing thread is that without real time updates and early warning JF17's success will be compromised. How Pakistan will integrate F16 with Chinese AWACS is a catch here. Furthermore your pilots may be skilled with F16 but exposure to this new baby will take time for them have a feel and test its limits.
Regards.

I do not claim JF to be superior to MKI but today as we speak MKI has to face only WVR (AAM) air crafts such as Mirage-III F-7 and even the older block 15. but JF-17 equipped with SD-10 and later in the stage MICA will create a massive headache which we all have to agree.

 

[sancho]

However what i am saying is that in current situation IAF already has had the upper hand, in current and midterm the ongoing induction of JF-17 would start offsetting this disparity since we will have a new fighter ( in numbers) with good technology (even in current configuration) instead of the ancient F-7 airframe which is a brother of Mig-21...whatever upgrade you make these little monsters go through, at the end of the day their design is severely limited and there is not much you can do about it.

Not exactly, because unlike PAFs F7, IAF Bisons are BVR capable which makes them a serious threat to any PAF fighter in BVR, if guided by AWACS, or MKI and we saw such tactics even against US F15 cope India.
Regarding JF 17, it is meant only as a modern replacement for older fighters, just like LCA and both are ment as low end fighters. It will bring PAF on par with IAF lower end, however on the high end side the numerical and technical edge will remain, if not even increase till the end of the decade.

 

[sancho]

I do not claim JF to be superior to MKI but today as we speak MKI has to face only WVR (AAM) air crafts such as Mirage-III F-7 and even the older block 15. but JF-17 equipped with SD-10 and later in the stage MICA will create a massive headache which we all have to agree.

What makes you so sure about it?
Wouldn't it be like this:

JF 17 low RCS, but less radar range vs. MKI big RCS, but long range radar

So who will see the other first and more important who will shoot first? Be it SD 10, or MICA EM, both have less range than R77 and although they won't fire at maximum range, the MKI should have an advantage here.
So the JF must not only see the MKI first, but also get undetected close enough to make a save shot right?

 

[cw2005]

What makes you so sure about it?
Wouldn't it be like this:

JF 17 low RCS, but less radar range vs. MKI big RCS, but long range radar

So who will see the other first and more important who will shoot first? Be it SD 10, or MICA EM, both have less range than R77 and although they won't fire at maximum range, the MKI should have an advantage here.
So the JF must not only see the MKI first, but also get undetected close enough to make a save shot right?

I thought both side would be trying to reduce RCS and increase Radar range. At the end of day, the same situation remains as it is.

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Not exactly, because unlike PAFs F7, IAF Bisons are BVR capable which makes them a serious threat to any PAF fighter in BVR, if guided by AWACS, or MKI and we saw such tactics even against US F15 cope India.

Kindly try searching about J7Pgs BVR capability i hope u will be shocked.
J7PGs do have BVR capability.

Regarding JF 17, it is meant only as a modern replacement for older fighters, just like LCA and both are ment as low end fighters

.
PAFs thinking isnt capped in a bottle.Havent u heard of the plans?
BlockI.BlockII,Block III all will be upgraded and try using ur mind.Right now the infant JF17 is considered to be as capabale as F16 Block 15 what will it be compaired to after it gets matures?

it will bring PAF on par with IAF lower end, however on the high end side the numerical and technical edge will remain, if not even increase till the end of the decade

Thts what PAFs modernisation plan is for:
SAAB awacs
SINO-INDUS AWACS
150 FC-20 incoperating western systems
300 JF-17 with western avionics and better avionics and maybe even design modifications.
76 F16 Block 52s (If PAF decides 18 more which is very much possibilty as PAF hasnt ruled out the options and even according toAir chief we aill use our full options statement)
Pak-fa will arive after a decade and so will JXX so we dont have to worry about tht.
And hopefully our economy will be revived so who knows what future has stored in for us?

 

[All-Green]

Not exactly, because unlike PAFs F7, IAF Bisons are BVR capable which makes them a serious threat to any PAF fighter in BVR, if guided by AWACS, or MKI and we saw such tactics even against US F15 cope India.
Regarding JF 17, it is meant only as a modern replacement for older fighters, just like LCA and both are ment as low end fighters. It will bring PAF on par with IAF lower end, however on the high end side the numerical and technical edge will remain, if not even increase till the end of the decade.

It is not just about being able to fire a BVR missile...not that simple a matter at all.
Even if all F-7s were BVR equipped we still would have to phase them out and replace them with thunder...

Bison will not be a major threat on its own just 2-3 years down the line, the MIG-21 platform is agile but that is about it and that point remains valid no matter what engineering feats are pulled off, limited space and limited performance envelop of such an old design cannot be overriden.
Bison will need helping hands to stand a chance in future.
Bison is a low end fighter and so is F-7 and in future both will be phased out, currently they are filling the numbers.

JF-17 is low cost but a lot of margin for improvement since conceptually it is a modern fighter design, that is the reason i believe JF-17 may be the low to medium end fighter with some basic and some highly upgraded thunder squadrons.
This is what was eventually decided for JF-17 instead of the low end low cost profile which was discussed initially before design finalization.

Anyways JF-17 is not an Su-30 killer either...it will however be a very flexible platform and may prove to be a very formidable jet in the hands of PAF.

Air Superiority would be the primary domain of FC-20 and F-16.

 

[ice_man]

i don't know WHY every indian thinks that MKI is the only fighter in the indian airforce!!!! a comparison between MKI & JF-17 is a bit harsh on both!!

the INDIAN WESTERN COMMAND currently operates

The WAC features air defence squadrons consisting of the MiG-21, MiG-23 and MiG-29. The ground attack squadrons consists of the MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-27 and Jaguar IS.



so yes in case of war PAF will be pitted against all these platforms not only the MKIs!