Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[ice_man]

@ raveolution finally i got through to someone and we have a consensus....complete air superiority is impossible for any side...at least in a short war....

 

[Ababeel]

Superiority of the MKI's PESA radar, with a detection range of 160 Km


AEW&C assets will also negate any advantages the MKI has over any potential encounter with the FC-1 / JF-17. When both sides have this, it levels the playing field for the FC-1 / JF-17
SOC admits later in his comments section that in fact, detection range of the Bars is (according to Janes, for a 2m squared target), 80-100 km head on. About half what was first estimated, and that assuming a 2m squared target. More probable would be a calculation for 1 meter squared target, and that is being generous, given that the JF-17 is smaller than the F-16, and hides its blades AND has RAM coating.
Meanwhile, SOC sticks with 75km as the detection range of the JF-17, for a "fighter sized target". Clearly, for the MKI, specially loaded out for offensive operations, this will be way bigger. Again, assuming that what was originally MY estimate of the detection range is in fact accurate (I actually never said 75 kms but > 75 kms, implying a minimum of, rather than a typical range. Further, given revelation of info on the KLJ-7's surpising modernity and the increased radome size on the JF-17, the point becomes even less arguable).

Later blocks of the JF-17 are likely to have an AESA radar

The Bars radar has Jet Engine Modulation (JEM) technology, allowing for a target to be identified at range by simply analyzing the radar returns from the target's engine compressor face.


Point is moot when its clear that the FC-1 / JF-17 does not expose its blades AND uses RAM coating, as has been discussed in interviews with officials.
There is also the passive engagement option for the MKI, something else speculated for future FC-1 blocks.
One must understand the nature of passive engagements, very useful in less sensor rich environments. Its like putting your torch light off in a dark room. However, of limited importance in a well lit room (sensor-rich environment), one that is likely to be the case given the sheer number of radars, AEW assets and fighters on air in the Indo-Pak scenario. Lets not forget its a lot harder to hide, being the size of an elephant.
Some other issues:


The PAF is actively acquiring an aerial refueling capability. Loitering is significantly lengthened for the FC-1 / JF-17 with aerial refueling.
Later blocks are likely to be significantly more advanced.
The Pakfa and the J-13 are not as far away as some people imagine.
Pakistani J-10s will be a step up from the present J-10s and would easily act as force multipliers.
Indian MRCA is also to be very seriously considered and countered, so are the present fleet of M-2000s and MiG-29s.
Many IAF airbases are within easy range of Pakistani cruise missiles. Remember that the best place to destroy an enemy air force is on the ground..



Ultimately, success in the air will be determined by not only system effectiveness and capability, but by pilot skill, and the parameters of the engagement.

Limited & Superficial Comparison of Air Assets of the PAF & IAF - Grande Strategy

 

[Sapper]

given that the JF-17 is smaller than the F-16, and hides its blades AND has RAM coating.

Dear, Although your post was very informative and well thought out, i would like to correct you here (before someone LASHES out on you).

JF-17 does not have RAM coating. Also, i have yet to witness any credible evidence that JF-17 will have RAM coating in the future. (If i am wrong, please post a link).

 

[desiman]

Superiority of the MKI's PESA radar, with a detection range of 160 Km


AEW&C assets will also negate any advantages the MKI has over any potential encounter with the FC-1 / JF-17. When both sides have this, it levels the playing field for the FC-1 / JF-17
SOC admits later in his comments section that in fact, detection range of the Bars is (according to Janes, for a 2m squared target), 80-100 km head on. About half what was first estimated, and that assuming a 2m squared target. More probable would be a calculation for 1 meter squared target, and that is being generous, given that the JF-17 is smaller than the F-16, and hides its blades AND has RAM coating.
Meanwhile, SOC sticks with 75km as the detection range of the JF-17, for a "fighter sized target". Clearly, for the MKI, specially loaded out for offensive operations, this will be way bigger. Again, assuming that what was originally MY estimate of the detection range is in fact accurate (I actually never said 75 kms but > 75 kms, implying a minimum of, rather than a typical range. Further, given revelation of info on the KLJ-7's surpising modernity and the increased radome size on the JF-17, the point becomes even less arguable).

Later blocks of the JF-17 are likely to have an AESA radar

The Bars radar has Jet Engine Modulation (JEM) technology, allowing for a target to be identified at range by simply analyzing the radar returns from the target's engine compressor face.


Point is moot when its clear that the FC-1 / JF-17 does not expose its blades AND uses RAM coating, as has been discussed in interviews with officials.
There is also the passive engagement option for the MKI, something else speculated for future FC-1 blocks.
One must understand the nature of passive engagements, very useful in less sensor rich environments. Its like putting your torch light off in a dark room. However, of limited importance in a well lit room (sensor-rich environment), one that is likely to be the case given the sheer number of radars, AEW assets and fighters on air in the Indo-Pak scenario. Lets not forget its a lot harder to hide, being the size of an elephant.
Some other issues:


The PAF is actively acquiring an aerial refueling capability. Loitering is significantly lengthened for the FC-1 / JF-17 with aerial refueling.
Later blocks are likely to be significantly more advanced.
The Pakfa and the J-13 are not as far away as some people imagine.
Pakistani J-10s will be a step up from the present J-10s and would easily act as force multipliers.
Indian MRCA is also to be very seriously considered and countered, so are the present fleet of M-2000s and MiG-29s.
Many IAF airbases are within easy range of Pakistani cruise missiles. Remember that the best place to destroy an enemy air force is on the ground..



Ultimately, success in the air will be determined by not only system effectiveness and capability, but by pilot skill, and the parameters of the engagement.

Limited & Superficial Comparison of Air Assets of the PAF & IAF - Grande Strategy

And ya the whole of pakistan is in the range of Indian cruise missiles. The website that you are quoting from is hardly authentic and again it looks like a JF-17 fanboy wrote the article lol.
1) No comparison between JF-17 and MKI, the MKI will emerge the winner 9 out of 10 times. If you include awacs support then then use multiple JF-17's against 1 MKI, then maybe the JF-17 might win but other than that 1 on 1, the JF-17 stand no chance at all.
2) Stop glorifying the JF-17 like this, its really hurting the real potency of the jet, its a great jet but when you start comparing it to a MKI, it makes no sense. Just because its made by China with some pakistani inputs does not mean it can match upto the matured MKI, which is constantly among the 5 best in the world.
3) Please the MRCA program by India is worth well over $10 billions dollars. PAF has no counter to that just because of the sheer size of the program. All the PAF can do is get some J-10's and hope they are good and also wait to see when the super hyped J-XX program actually comes into being. Other than that buying the typhoon or the rafale is out of question for the PAF, because of the cost of buying them, and also maintaining them. Maintaining 2-3 aircrafts of 4 or 4.5 generation is not feasible for pakistan. It will infact lower the PAF's capability with so many things to take care of.
4)Brother the j-13 is a cancelled project, i hope you know.
5) It does not matter if PAF get air refueling capability as the JF-17 will not be sent to attack the IAF or India because it is not meant to do so. The PAF will have F-16's and in the future J-10's for that role.
Here ill post the actual tech specs of both aircraft you can see and decide which one is better and finally close this thread lol

Su-30 MKI
General characteristics

Crew: 2
Length: 21.935 m (72.97 ft)
Wingspan: 14.7 m (48.2 ft)
Height: 6.36 m (20.85 ft)
Wing area: 62.0 m² (667 ft²)
Empty weight: 18,400 kg [1] (40,565 lb)
Loaded weight: 24,900 kg (54,895 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 38,800 kg (85,600 lb)
Powerplant: 2× Lyulka AL-31FP turbofans with thrust vectoring, 131 kN (29,449 lbf) each
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 2.35 (2,500 km/h) at 11,000 m (36,000 ft)
Range: 5,000 km (2,700 nmi) at altitude; (1,270 km, 690 nmi near ground level)(With Internal Fuel Tank)
Service ceiling: 17,300 m (56,800 ft)
Rate of climb: >355 m/s (70,000 ft/min)
Wing loading: 401 kg/m² (98 lb/ft²)
Thrust/weight: 1.07 (at loaded weight & 1.15 with 50% fuel)
Armament:

built-in single-barrel GSh-301 gun (30 mm calibre, 150 rounds)

Air to Air Missiles:

6 × R-27R/AA-10A/Astra[45] semi-active radar homing medium range AAM of range 80 km.
6 × R-27T (AA-10B) infrared homing seeker, medium range AAM, 70 km
2 × R-27P (AA-10C) passive radar seeker, long range AAM
10 × R-77 (AA-12) active radar homing medium range AAM, 100 km
6 × R-73 (AA-11) short range AAM, 30 km
3 × Novator KS-172 AAM-L Indian/Russian air-to-air missile designed as an "AWACS killer"
Air to Surface Missiles:

2 × Kh-59ME TV guided standoff Missile, 115 km
2 × Kh-59MK Laser guided standoff Missile, 130 km
4 × Kh-35 Anti-Ship Missile, 130 km
3 × PJ-10 Brahmos Supersonic Cruise Missile,300 km
6 × Kh-31P/A anti-radar missile, 70 km
6 × Kh-29T/L laser guided missile, 30 km
4 × S-8 rocket pods (80 unguided rockets)
4 × S-13 rocket pods (20 unguided rockets)
Bombs:

6 × KAB-500L laser guided bombs
3 × KAB-1500L laser guided bombs
8 × FAB-500T dumb bombs
28 × OFAB-250-270 dumb bombs
32 × OFAB-100-120 dumb bombs
8 × RBK-500 cluster bombs
There is much more but dont want to make the post toooo long lol

JF-17 Thunder
Crew: 1
Length: 14.0 m [76] (45.9 ft)
Wingspan: 9.45 m (including 2 wingtip missiles) [76] (31 ft)
Height: 4.77 m (15 ft 8 in)
Wing area: 24.4 m² [76] (263 ft²)
Empty weight: 6,411 kg (14,134 lb)
Loaded weight: 9,100 kg including 2× wing-tip mounted air-to-air missiles [6][77] (20,062 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 12,700 kg [77] (28,000 lb)
Powerplant: 1× Klimov RD-93 turbofan
Dry thrust: 49.4 kN [2][8] (11,106 lbf)
Thrust with afterburner: 84.4 kN [2][78] (18,973 lbf)
G-limit: +8.5 g [2]
Internal Fuel Capacity: 2300 kg (5,130 lb) [6]
Performance

Maximum speed: Mach 1.8 [6][37] (1,191 knots, 2,205 kph)
Combat radius: 1,352 km [2] (840 mi)
Ferry range: 3,000 km [8] (2,175 mi)
Service ceiling: 16,700 m [8] (54,790 ft)
Thrust/weight: 0.99 [2][6]
Armament


Guns: 1× 23 mm GSh-23-2 twin-barrel cannon (can be replaced with 30 mm GSh-30-2)
Hardpoints: 7 in total (4× under-wing, 2× wing-tip, 1× under-fuselage) with a capacity of 3,629 kg (8,000 lb) external fuel and ordnance,
Rockets: 57 mm, 90 mm unguided rocket pods [80]
Missiles:

Air-to-air missiles:
Short range: AIM-9L/M, PL-5E, PL-9C
Beyond visual range: PL-12 / SD-10
Air-to-surface missiles:
Anti-radiation missiles
Anti-ship missiles: AM-39 Exocet
Cruise missiles: Ra'ad ALCM
Bombs:

Unguided bombs:
Mk-82, Mk-84 general purpose bombs
Matra Durandal anti-runway bomb
CBU-100/Mk-20 Rockeye anti-armour cluster bomb
Precision guided munitions (PGM):
GBU-10, GBU-12, LT-2 laser-guided bombs
H-2, H-4 electro-optically guided,[7] LS-6 satellite-guided glide bombs [79]
Satellite-guided bombs [7]
Others:
Up to 3 external fuel drop-tanks (1× under-fuselage 800 litres, 2× under-wing 800/1100 litres each) for extended range/loitering time
Avionics


NRIET KLJ-7 multi-mode fire-control radar [51]
NVG compatible glass cockpit [6]
Helmet Mounted Sights/Display (HMS/D)
Infra-Red Search and Track (IRST)
Externally mounted avionics pods:
Self-protection radar jammer pod
Day/night laser designator targeting pod
Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) pod

 

[raveolution]

Superiority of the MKI's PESA radar, with a detection range of 160 Km


AEW&C assets will also negate any advantages the MKI has over any potential encounter with the FC-1 / JF-17. When both sides have this, it levels the playing field for the FC-1 / JF-17
SOC admits later in his comments section that in fact, detection range of the Bars is (according to Janes, for a 2m squared target), 80-100 km head on. About half what was first estimated, and that assuming a 2m squared target. More probable would be a calculation for 1 meter squared target, and that is being generous, given that the JF-17 is smaller than the F-16, and hides its blades AND has RAM coating.
Meanwhile, SOC sticks with 75km as the detection range of the JF-17, for a "fighter sized target". Clearly, for the MKI, specially loaded out for offensive operations, this will be way bigger. Again, assuming that what was originally MY estimate of the detection range is in fact accurate (I actually never said 75 kms but > 75 kms, implying a minimum of, rather than a typical range. Further, given revelation of info on the KLJ-7's surpising modernity and the increased radome size on the JF-17, the point becomes even less arguable).

Later blocks of the JF-17 are likely to have an AESA radar

The Bars radar has Jet Engine Modulation (JEM) technology, allowing for a target to be identified at range by simply analyzing the radar returns from the target's engine compressor face.


Point is moot when its clear that the FC-1 / JF-17 does not expose its blades AND uses RAM coating, as has been discussed in interviews with officials.
There is also the passive engagement option for the MKI, something else speculated for future FC-1 blocks.
One must understand the nature of passive engagements, very useful in less sensor rich environments. Its like putting your torch light off in a dark room. However, of limited importance in a well lit room (sensor-rich environment), one that is likely to be the case given the sheer number of radars, AEW assets and fighters on air in the Indo-Pak scenario. Lets not forget its a lot harder to hide, being the size of an elephant.
Some other issues:


The PAF is actively acquiring an aerial refueling capability. Loitering is significantly lengthened for the FC-1 / JF-17 with aerial refueling.
Later blocks are likely to be significantly more advanced.
The Pakfa and the J-13 are not as far away as some people imagine.
Pakistani J-10s will be a step up from the present J-10s and would easily act as force multipliers.
Indian MRCA is also to be very seriously considered and countered, so are the present fleet of M-2000s and MiG-29s.
Many IAF airbases are within easy range of Pakistani cruise missiles. Remember that the best place to destroy an enemy air force is on the ground..



Ultimately, success in the air will be determined by not only system effectiveness and capability, but by pilot skill, and the parameters of the engagement.

Limited & Superficial Comparison of Air Assets of the PAF & IAF - Grande Strategy

Appreciate the information available form this article. However the point is that AWACS or not, an aircraft needs its own radar to lock on to the enemy aircraft, for mid-course guidance, etc which cannot be done using the AWACS radar with superior range.

The actual specs of the JF17 or its future blocks is yet unknown so we should wait until a deal to that effect is signed. If it is getting an AESA radar, it would not be before 2015, by when PAF expects to start Blk3. The MKI will start its MLU program by 2011 under which it will get the powerful IRBIS AESA radar, derived from the SU35 and PAF-FA program.

 

[AVIAN]

the JF might and i repeat MIGHT lock onto the MKI in close combat or maybe even in BVR mode if there is a lone MKI somewhere up against 5 or 6 thunders! but if the fight is one on one i guess the JF would be fighting a losing battle...something of the david vs goliath fight....

MKI radar can track 15 air targets and engage 4 simultaneously.

so yes MKI being killed by our JF is unlikely but then again not impossible as you might remember your gnats did shoot down a couple of F86s bak in the day right....

If you truly are an aviation enthusiastic, then I must suggest you to don't make such a childish comments

 

[FGFA]

Stop make JF-17 is More superior to Su-30 MKI

The Details from Manufacturing Companies are given below. Go-through first, then Speak brothers,

PAKISTAN AERONAUTICAL COMPLEX

-->JF-17 DETAILED SPECIFICATIONS<--

SUKHOI COMPANY

-->Su-30 MK* DETAILED SPECIFICATIONS<--

 

[gogbot]

When will this thread end?

how long will we continue this meaningless debate,
Forget the fact that you are comparing a Tiger to a Jackal.
The JF-17 isnt even out yet.

 

[hj786]

how long will we continue this meaningless debate,

As long as you Indian trolls refuse to accept the simple facts I have posted previously, the ones which seemingly none of you can counter:

The JF-17 has tactical data-links to interface with other platforms such as AWACS aircraft, so it would always be aware of an opposing aircraft's position. The radar warning receiver systems would also help here. It has BVR AAMs and a radar with around 100 km range against even fairly small targets - which the mki isn't. For close range combat it will have 5th generation short range missiles with TVC and infra-red imaging seekers, capable of manoeuvring at around 50g, which the mki can't. These missiles will be slaved to a helmet-mounted sights/display system, and the mki is not invisible so JF-17 pilots can see it and designate it for their missiles. It has a missile approach warning system which is integrated with not only UV/IR sensors giving 360 degree coverage, but also the radar warning receiver and electronic warfare systems (radar jammer housed in the rectangular fairing at the tip of the vertical tail fin). The mki's missiles are also not invisible to UV/IR sensors, unless they don't have rocket motors. According to a Chinese article, the onboard radar jammer is capable of focusing all its jamming power in any direction. There are sources for all of this.

Seriously dude...u need to update yourself on MKI ! Ignorance is bliss !

It is obvious to any normal person that by denying the above facts, YOU are the ones living in blissful ignorance. You can repeat your BS a million times, it isn't enough to make it the truth.

I am feeling sorry for you, post something genuine that could match up with MKI, or else keep quite !

I feel sorry for you because you can't handle the facts in my posts, so you want me to stay quiet.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

how about starting a new thread on
F-16 C/D block50/52 vs SU-30MKI

 

[raveolution]

how about starting a new thread on
F-16 C/D block50/52 vs SU-30MKI

A good idea

Or else we can wait for 2 years and start a thread F16 Blk 52 vs MRCA... I guess they would be pretty evenly matched,except for Supercruise and AESA radar.

Either way I think all "Versus" thread should be disregarded. Too many external factors at play.

 

[nightrider_saulat]

A good idea

Or else we can wait for 2 years and start a thread F16 Blk 52 vs MRCA... I guess they would be pretty evenly matched,except for Supercruise and AESA radar.

Either way I think all "Versus" thread should be disregarded. Too many external factors at play.

i think you should rate f-16 block 50/52 & 60 in 4.5th generation category

 

[Storm Force]

The F16/52 is easily the best fighter that PAF has and IMO is stil bEST OPTION TO TACKLE THE MASSIVE su30mki fleet of 230 or maybe even 280 PLANES.

Stil cant believe PAF ordered only 18 block52s

They were offered 36 by USA

 

[Iggy]

As long as you Indian trolls refuse to accept the simple facts I have posted previously, the ones which seemingly none of you can counter:



It is obvious to any normal person that by denying the above facts, YOU are the ones living in blissful ignorance. You can repeat your BS a million times, it isn't enough to make it the truth.


I feel sorry for you because you can't handle the facts in my posts, so you want me to stay quiet.

please read the below links you will get a pretty much good idea about SU-30 MKI

Su-30MKI compared with the F-16C and F-18E/F
Sukhoi Su-30MKI - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[PakShaheen79]

The F16/52 is easily the best fighter that PAF has and IMO is stil bEST OPTION TO TACKLE THE MASSIVE su30mki fleet of 230 or maybe even 280 PLANES.

Stil cant believe PAF ordered only 18 block52s

They were offered 36 by USA

This also speaks about JF-17's performance and PAF's confidence on it. According to Ex-ACM Current deal of F-16 is probably is last deal with US and PAF over fighter jets. Some analysts believe that sole reason for this deal was to get AMRAAM, JDAM, JSOW and Sniper pods.