Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[raveolution]

Yes, it is.......compare basic specs of Mirage 2K, Mig-29 and JF

Global Aircraft -- Dassault Mirage 2000
Global Aircraft -- MiG-29 Fulcrum

Please read the basic or advanced specifications of both these aircraft and then make your statements. The links i've given are of older generation Mirage 2000 and Mig 29's. With their upgrades,which are underway, they will become even more capable aircraft.

How can you compare two aircraft which are proven platforms and which have seen combat with an aircraft that has not even gotten any FOC.

No hard feelings. Just my opinion.

 

[raveolution]

27 Pages and still going.... Oh lord plz send someone to tell both Indians and Pakistanis here that they are comparing apples to oranges.

Your point is very much valid PakShaheen. But the deal is that these two aircraft will be inducted in huge numbers in both airforces. 150 JF's (May eventually go upto 250) and 280 MKI's. When these aircraft go up against each other, they won't disengage and fly back to their respective countries because one is an apple and the other an orange.

The fact remains that although not comparable, it will see action in any eventuality of war, which I hope is never.

 

[desiman]

All resources are available wt specific u want to know .


Yes, it is.......compare basic specs of Mirage 2K, Mig-29 and JF

No one , even u dont have any idea abt LCA coz the project is already incomplete. U still dont have engine or radar.


I know very well abt 4.5th generation



I m not a fanboy...aviod flaming comments.

The LCA delay was due to India's lack of experience in designing sophisticated fighter aircraft. Taking a leap from 2nd Generation (HAL HF-24 Marut) to 4.5 Generation did proved India a serious obstacle.

now india desperately needed partner devloper to complete the proj ....especially when lookhead moved down ur request.

Still there is engine and radar problem in LCA

So, no one can say abt the specs of LCA coz its undecided.



lolz

Plz dont get personal, I m quoting facts.
I know much abt LCA project.

LCA is not 6th or 7th generation fighter that its taking too long.
It took long coz India lacks in expertise. I am not saying that Pak is expert but yes we have learnt alot in Joint Production with China and developed some thing which is in air.



India has more Russian techs then any other.



JF-17 is multirole fighter.

I wish if u could post some technical details as per ur sayings. I will appriciade ur knowledge
Visitors on this forum will love to know ur developed Technical details.

MZUBAIR Brother sry if i seemed personal anytime never meant anything like that. Brother the LCA's delay is yes due to India's lack of expertise making a true 4.5 generation aircraft but that does not mean that we are not capable of it. I have worked with companies that provide equipment to the DRDO and i have enough knowledge of the LCA to tell you how good the fighter will be when its inducted into the IAF. The DRDO is looking for western additions onto the LCA just to make it more lethal and to correct any problems that they think could cause a problem. Once the DRDO have mastered the Kaveri engine and some other specs on the LCA, the need for western Tech will no longer be needed. The LCA will be a 4.5 generation aircraft from day 1 of its induction unlike the JF-17 which still lacks a lot before it can claim to me a 4.5 generation aircraft. Dont get me wrong, the JF-17 is a very capable aircraft but just by adding "Thunder" to the name does not mean it can compete against proven platforms like the Mig29, Mirage 2K and the MKI. The JF-17 is 90% chinese made and Chinese tech is still yet to be tested against any other proven platform. The Chinese "Claim" that their aircraft are *** good or even better than western jets but i highly doubt that and even in the aviation community, there is heavy doubt on the actual capability of Chinese aircraft. This is just some inside info i am giving you from the industry i work in so proving this would be tough for me. Other than that the JF-17 is yet to be proven and will heavily rely on western upgradation later on in its development cycle to acutal become "lethal" to other aircrafts. Only 8 JF-17 are in the air where on the other hand DRDO has already tested over 10 LCA models including the highly impressive naval version of the jet. In fact the LCA has more in-flight testing hours that the JF-17 which is already inducted into the PAF LOL. Give some time to the JF-17 but for now, this comparison does not exist, The MKI is far superior in every way to the JF-17.

 

[DANGER-ZONE]

every one agree that MKI is a beast,far batter then aircrafts which is pakistan and india having now days.but jf-17 isnt built for MKI,its a medium bird to counter medium birds.FC-20 will be able to take down MKI.
but if t38 can lock f22 then why Thunder cannot lock MKI.
its a practical game,we cant play it by words at a thread,by posting views.lets see when they will meet.

 

[raveolution]

every one agree that MKI is a beast,far batter then aircrafts which is pakistan and india having now days.but jf-17 isnt built for MKI,its a medium bird to counter medium birds.FC-20 will be able to take down MKI.
but if t38 can lock f22 then why Thunder cannot lock MKI.
its a practical game,we cant play it by words at a thread,by posting views.lets see when they will meet.

Please read my post above:

"Your point is very much valid PakShaheen. But the deal is that these two aircraft will be inducted in huge numbers in both airforces. 150 JF's (May eventually go upto 250) and 280 MKI's. When these aircraft go up against each other, they won't disengage and fly back to their respective countries because one is an apple and the other an orange.

The fact remains that although not comparable, it will see action in any eventuality of war, which I hope is never."

 

[gogbot]

You don't know a single thing about J-10B except what it looks like, so your claim proves you're typing trash.

The Most important Question is always. WHY?
anyone can give online statements that give zero information

If that helps you sleep better, keep believing that. The reality is that you can't accept the mki is still just an upgraded flanker and the JF-17 was developed to be capable of defeating it.

The JF-17 has tactical data-links to interface with other platforms such as AWACS aircraft, so it would always be aware of an opposing aircraft's position. The radar warning receiver systems would also help here. It has BVR AAMs and a radar with around 100 km range against even fairly small targets - which the mki isn't. For close range combat it will have 5th generation short range missiles with TVC and infra-red imaging seekers, capable of manoeuvring at around 50g, which the mki can't. These missiles will be slaved to a helmet-mounted sights/display system, and the mki is not invisible so JF-17 pilots can see it and designate it for their missiles. It has a missile approach warning system which is integrated with not only UV/IR sensors giving 360 degree coverage, but also the radar warning receiver and electronic warfare systems (radar jammer housed in the rectangular fairing at the tip of the vertical tail fin). The mki's missiles are also not invisible to UV/IR sensors, unless they don't have rocket motors. According to a Chinese article, the onboard radar jammer is capable of focusing all its jamming power in any direction. There are sources for all of this.

How about you quit trolling and face reality yourself?

You know all this is well and good.

But i actually asked a few legitimate questions in my Post. But you just gone of the wagon and given me all this Information.

Tell you what if you really want to prove me wrong, why dont you go about by actually answering my questions

And Just to point out before the JF-17 can engae the MKI on even ground, it has to be a better jet that the J-10B. So unless you are telling me that the JF-17 can be better than a J-10B or F-16, in which case why aren't the Chinese mass producing the JF-17?
and why is the PAF still getting F-16?

Come on then If the JF-17 is capable of all that.
Why isn't China capitalizing on this.? its their bloody plane.

And why is Pakistan Still getting F-16's , for the same price you could have 4 JF-17's

 

[hj786]

The Most important Question is always. WHY? anyone can give online statements that give zero information

You're the one giving zero information here.

But i actually asked a few legitimate questions in my Post.

No you didn't, those are stupid questions.

Come on then If the JF-17 is capable of all that.

It is capable of all that, whether you like it or not. If you want the sources, they are listed on the Wikipedia article. I can list them here if you like.

Why isn't China capitalizing on this.? its their bloody plane.
And why is Pakistan Still getting F-16's , for the same price you could have 4 JF-17's

Simple. China is a BIGGER COUNTRY that Pakistan, therefore China needs BIGGER AEROPLANES that carry MORE FUEL, giving them GREATER RANGE and allowing them to defend a BIGGER COUNTRY. Do you understand yet? I can't dumb it down any more than that. It is very simple, anybody with half a brain can get the concept of a bigger aeroplane being required to defend a bigger country. Why do you and your ilk keep repeating this crap?
Pakistan is still getting F-16s for several reasons. It has greater range, more endurance, it can carry more weapons. The PAF is familiar with it, it comes with lots of advanced weaponry - AMRAAMs, JDAMs, bunker-busters, etc. Again, stupid question with a simple answer.

 

[PakShaheen79]

MZUBAIR Brother sry if i seemed personal anytime never meant anything like that. Brother the LCA's delay is yes due to India's lack of expertise making a true 4.5 generation aircraft but that does not mean that we are not capable of it. I have worked with companies that provide equipment to the DRDO and i have enough knowledge of the LCA to tell you how good the fighter will be when its inducted into the IAF. The DRDO is looking for western additions onto the LCA just to make it more lethal and to correct any problems that they think could cause a problem. Once the DRDO have mastered the Kaveri engine and some other specs on the LCA, the need for western Tech will no longer be needed. The LCA will be a 4.5 generation aircraft from day 1 of its induction unlike the JF-17 which still lacks a lot before it can claim to me a 4.5 generation aircraft. Dont get me wrong, the JF-17 is a very capable aircraft but just by adding "Thunder" to the name does not mean it can compete against proven platforms like the Mig29, Mirage 2K and the MKI. The JF-17 is 90% chinese made and Chinese tech is still yet to be tested against any other proven platform. The Chinese "Claim" that their aircraft are *** good or even better than western jets but i highly doubt that and even in the aviation community, there is heavy doubt on the actual capability of Chinese aircraft. This is just some inside info i am giving you from the industry i work in so proving this would be tough for me. Other than that the JF-17 is yet to be proven and will heavily rely on western upgradation later on in its development cycle to acutal become "lethal" to other aircrafts. Only 8 JF-17 are in the air where on the other hand DRDO has already tested over 10 LCA models including the highly impressive naval version of the jet. In fact the LCA has more in-flight testing hours that the JF-17 which is already inducted into the PAF LOL. Give some time to the JF-17 but for now, this comparison does not exist, The MKI is far superior in every way to the JF-17.

don't worry if Western tech can make LCA a lethal fighter so can be JF-17 as well with same western tech. Point is... If LCA is that cool (Which i wish it may) why IAF is still going for another 4.5 gen fighter and is spending more than 10 billion US$ on it?

Now answer will be LCA need some time to be matured. I want to tell you that JF-17 also need time to be matured. PAF is fully committed to putting AESA in Thunder. Engine is already 19,100 lbs as opposed to older specs of 18,300 lbs. So... Thunder will get its teeth. But still I don't think there is a need to compare it with MKIs as latter is miles ahead in every aspect and is a heavy weight whereas Thunder is light weight like LCA.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Originally Posted by gogbot
Why isn't China capitalizing on this.? its their bloody plane.
And why is Pakistan Still getting F-16's , for the same price you could have 4 JF-17's

China is going to induct FC-1. But as it is much bigger country than PAK and PLAAF has its own doctrine so it is not necessary that Thunder can fit in that doctrine as good as it is in PAF's doctrine.

PAF is getting F-16 as it is proven, mature, reliable system all these are yet to met by Thunder.

 

[AVIAN]

every one agree that MKI is a beast,far batter then aircrafts which is pakistan and india having now days.

So you mean that MKI isn't part of the IAF that makes it unmatch to what India having now a days?

but jf-17 isnt built for MKI,its a medium bird to counter medium birds.FC-20 will be able to take down MKI.
but if t38 can lock f22 then why Thunder cannot lock MKI.
its a practical game,we cant play it by words at a thread,by posting views.lets see when they will meet.

When in your first statement, you yourself confessed that JF-17 isn't built for MKI then why are taking extra hard to by bringing in pointless generics of Thunder locking on MKI?

 

[ice_man]

see the THUNDER comes into feather weight boxer category like the new boy Amir Khan of the UK!!! however the MKI is the mike tyson of fighter jets!!! there is no comparison!


the JF might and i repeat MIGHT lock onto the MKI in close combat or maybe even in BVR mode if there is a lone MKI somewhere up against 5 or 6 thunders! but if the fight is one on one i guess the JF would be fighting a losing battle...something of the david vs goliath fight....

so yes MKI being killed by our JF is unlikely but then again not impossible as you might remember your gnats did shoot down a couple of F86s bak in the day right....

 

[Storm Force]

Pak Saheen 79 AT LEAST your openly aclnowledge that MKI is a at different level to Thunder.

There are some people (only some) who wish to disagree..

Where as You (Pak Shaheen) realise that Thunder is very early in its induction and will evolve there are others who fear it can,t bridge the gap between Present Thunder and Current/future IAF fleet of 400+ MKI/MMRCA..

If i was an IAF pilot nothing wud give me more heart than to see PAF spend $ billions and a decade on 250 Thunders.

BUT..

If PAF spent $billions on F16/52 & J10 then it wud be a worried MKI pilot..

 

[raveolution]

don't worry if Western tech can make LCA a lethal fighter so can be JF-17 as well with same western tech. Point is... If LCA is that cool (Which i wish it may) why IAF is still going for another 4.5 gen fighter and is spending more than 10 billion US$ on it?

Now answer will be LCA need some time to be matured. I want to tell you that JF-17 also need time to be matured. PAF is fully committed to putting AESA in Thunder. Engine is already 19,100 lbs as opposed to older specs of 18,300 lbs. So... Thunder will get its teeth. But still I don't think there is a need to compare it with MKIs as latter is miles ahead in every aspect and is a heavy weight whereas Thunder is light weight like LCA.

Hi PakShaheen... The LCA as a platform will take time to get mature, the same as with JF17. You have to understand that a lot of time was spent on the LCA as India was attempting to make a 4+ gen fighter after its initial experience with the 2nd Gen Marut. Both platforms, when fitted with western avionics/ radar / etc will be a completely different platform then they are today.

The LCA was never intended to compete with the MRCA contract. The LCA was intended to replace IAF's aging fleet of Mig 21's and the MRCA is intended to replace the other older aircraft such as the Mig 27, Jags, etc.

 

[paritosh]

the JF might and i repeat MIGHT lock onto the MKI in close combat or maybe even in BVR mode if there is a lone MKI somewhere up against 5 or 6 thunders! but if the fight is one on one i guess the JF would be fighting a losing battle...something of the david vs goliath fight....

so yes MKI being killed by our JF is unlikely but then again not impossible as you might remember your gnats did shoot down a couple of F86s bak in the day right....

air combat as you know as evolved a lot from the days of the dog fights...we in this day and age assume that air combat kills will be mostly BVR...I am not arguing about the validity and accuracy of the threat of BVR combat...all I am saying is that airforces assume that if the enemy has BVR capable aircrafts then their own aircrafts can be shot at BVR....and they make their planes better by providing better radars and BVR armament.So the gnat vs F-86 argument is somewhat not applicable....
as far as killing through numerical superiority is concerned I am pretty sure that at no point the numbers of JF-17 will exceed those of the MKI...
waise it's stupid comparing Jf-17 to Su-30...JF-17 is a very good plane...and it's not that the IAF just has the SU-30....JF-17 would be very good against the Migs and mirages...can certainly shoot down the jaguars...which dont have BVR capabilities...
I have heard that the JF-17s maneuverability is similar to the f-16s...if that is the case then you should be fairly happy with being able to produce it on your own...

 

[raveolution]

air combat as you know as evolved a lot from the days of the dog fights...we in this day and age assume that air combat kills will be mostly BVR...I am not arguing about the validity and accuracy of the threat of BVR combat...all I am saying is that airforces assume that if the enemy has BVR capable aircrafts then their own aircrafts can be shot at BVR....and they make their planes better by providing better radars and BVR armament.So the gnat vs F-86 argument is somewhat not applicable....
as far as killing through numerical superiority is concerned I am pretty sure that at no point the numbers of JF-17 will exceed those of the MKI...
waise it's stupid comparing Jf-17 to Su-30...JF-17 is a very good plane...and it's not that the IAF just has the SU-30....JF-17 would be very good against the Migs and mirages...can certainly shoot down the jaguars...which dont have BVR capabilities...
I have heard that the JF-17s maneuverability is similar to the f-16s...if that is the case then you should be fairly happy with being able to produce it on your own...

Paritosh, what Iceman meant to say was not that the Thunders are more in number than the MKI's in our respective Air Forces. He was talking about a tactical situation where a lone MKI would run into a few thunders. Definitely possible but unlikely as one would simply not be loitering around. Whether it is for ground attack, air defence or CAP, aircraft generally move in teams of two or more. Also due to AWACS and the MKI's radar, it's difficult to ambush it.

However Iceman, as you rightly said, it is possible for a few MKI's to go down in battle with the thunders, albeit at a much lower ratio. So if 10 thunders come up against 10 MKI's it is possible that the IAF may lose a couple. There is nothing such as 100% Air Superiority without any losses, unless you're the US fighting Iraq, Yugoslavia, etc.