Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight

[paritosh]

I think in real combat we just do not know enough cause the F22 loses in wvr arena even from a T38. Certainly from a f16. When we see the whole system then the F22 is huge and expensive. You need sats, costly maintenance and surely numbers. I think the dominance by F22 is a bit far fetched. A nuclear nation will not accept that dominance and sofar the latest US planes could only achieve dominance after years of manipulation and degradation of the opponent (politicially, economically and technically). Nations like India and Pakistan are not suspectible to that. Nation like Russia and China are far above that level. So the dominance will be for the third world which hardly can achieve a decent airforce.

India is gradually moving from Mig21 era to more regional force. The problem is that the nation that surround it are not very happy with that. The plus is that India needs to import superiority and that leads to more and more problems. I do not mean that India has no workforce or intellectuals. The contrary is true. The produce very big and impressive numbers of well educated people. But in the field of defence or military equipment they are more basic then nations like China and Pakistan. The fact remains... Israel and South Africa showed. North Korea and Iran do the same... If you are treated like a paria you will have better results then a nation that gets all the support. India gets help from every nation (greed based) but is can not succeed in making Arjun/LCA etc. Why? It has the luxary of able to buy it. Same happens with arabs. They are filled with cash and hardly have achieven anything else then that. UAE shifted to real estate but that is pretty a dead end. Arab nations import everything and sofar exported wordl class items like Osama. They have no democarcy and the top is as corrupt as possible. They cannot threat Israel (not personally supported cause we should accept it as a nation) nor are they able to work as a team or decrease poverty under muslims. I think the pride of being a fellow muslim decreases when you are able to visit an arab nation...

Ok, let us return to the topic. Both India and Pakistan are not easy targets. Even outdated equipment in these hands is impressive. They both have pretty strong national feelings. They both posses power (in anyway) to get what they want. If that means totally boycot then they accept it as a fate. At the moment they are showing that while they both were third world almost 2 decades ago they now posses military power to be threat to 99% of the world. Only a few nations are able to stop them and then it will not mean a walk in the park. Adding to that is that they both are responsible nations. They have fought a few wars but they handled it much better then other developed nations. They never conquered other continents nor are a threat to others.

i like your post...just that...i fail to understand why you claim the pakistani indigenous weapon programs to be better than the indian ones..?
we are actually hijacking this thread...but i hope that we can sensibly put our doubts to rest.
you claim that India "imports it's superiority"
most of our imports have a significant indigenous input to them...like the SU-30 Mki...it is a lot different from the other Su-30s...
the LCA is not a failure...it flies...money is being invested and advanced prototypes are in order...it has completed more than a thousand flying hours...none has crashed..weapon testing is done...
we have gained enough experience for the MCA program...which has transformed from a fanboy's rumor to a reality...
and the Jf-17 is a chinese plane...made to fit the PAf description...i asked people here quite a while back...in some different thread to prove me otherwise...i got no real reply..
Al-Khalid or MBT-2000 has been made with the Chinese assistance...
a good counter to my claims would be Brahmos...but i really can point out the indian and the russian input in the development of the Brahmos...

and believe me...we have the money now to field the best of both the east and the west...while invest in improving our domestic tech through hierarchical indigenous programs and ToT from other programs.

 

[Munir]

If you read between the lines then there is no difference where they get it. Mostly with foreign input. Pakistani products rely on China (and some others) while India gets its tech from Russia and Israel. The difference is that Pakistan starts with less then best concept and gradually alters it locally to better. India jumps to f22 level and it fails... Unless you provide me info where Indian products are surpassing the original concept we can keep this as a basic fact.

Your option would be that India sets higher goal but then again takes more risks and maybe gets more tech input... Pakistan cannot afford the same risk, hence it goes from well known and tested ideas with tot towards Pakistan products...

 

[zombie:-)]

If you read between the lines then there is no difference where they get it. Mostly with foreign input. Pakistani products rely on China (and some others) while India gets its tech from Russia and Israel. The difference is that Pakistan starts with less then best concept and gradually alters it locally to better. India jumps to f22 level and it fails... Unless you provide me info where Indian products are surpassing the original concept we can keep this as a basic fact.

Your option would be that India sets higher goal but then again takes more risks and maybe gets more tech input... Pakistan cannot afford the same risk, hence it goes from well known and tested ideas with tot towards Pakistan products...

so how is it better than what we do .....please dont try to tell Pakistanis are the only smart people an earth .....then it'll be like Pakistanis are taller and fairer than Indians contest......yes we do some things and we do fail sometimes .....by the claims you make ...it says pakistan never fails anything it tries to develop .....if thats what you are telling .... STOP BOASTING...first you can try giving some CREDIBLE RESOURCES on stuff developed in pakistan which is better than the one it is modeled on .....i am asking you this because .....i want to point out the fact that any source from india about indian projects will not be considered as credible ....same applies for pakistan


AND FOR SOURCES ...ill post some things about MISSION COMPUTERS AND RWRs,INTEGRATED EW SUITS,AVIONICS TEST EQUIPMENT,MOBILE TEST EQUIPMENTS developed by DARE which is going into the su-30mki ,jaguar ,mig-27 upgrades,and the LCA

 

[Rafael]

Lets applaud the almighty JF-17 (Joint Fighter17) the unassailable Chinese & Pakistan’s joint venture, which with the current avionics can dogfight even against the best of flankers and can even outclass it inspite of the fact that the flankers has proven track record and its advanced avionics. The almighty JF-17 Block – II will outclass F-18 SH and even Rafaela or Euro Typhoon. And with Pakistan acquiring 36 J10B which are Chinese’s answer to the world for F-22 Pakistan will rule the skies of South-East Asia along with its Brother China. And if U.S provides F-16 Block 52 and Mirage Rose Upgrade and SaaB Erieye Pakistan AirForce will command the skies of its region.
Poor India with 230 Russian Made Flankers and Mig-21 Bis which do have BVRAAM capability and Mirage 2000 5/9 upgrade, Mig 27, Jaguars, Mig 29’s in its repository till 2025 who are in the process of acquiring some 126-200 F-18 SH/Rafale/Mig -35, which is in a Joint Venture in PAK/FA, and HAL Tejas taking its trails to be inducted in the class of 4.5 gen fighter will need to be a defensive airforce with Awacs in its skies because if Pakistan and China attacks India it will have no external support from either U.S.A, Israel, Russia, France or for that matter NATO forces.
Pakistan has Babur Crusie Missiles which can be lifted of with Nuclear War heads 100’s of them at once along with Shaeen- I, II, III and other state of art missiles leaving no option for India to Retaliate. Mighty, Mighty alliance of China and Pakistan.
On the other hand India’s with Agni, Prithvi, Brahmos, astra, Nag, and its own Air defence system which is considered better than Patriot or Arrow will have to Succumb to the potential effect and aftermath of the destructive force of Pakistan.

I never ever found anyone having a constructive debate on this thread apart from Fan boy claims of JF-17’s potential. Think but don’t perceive your dreams to be true when it comes to ground realities of Destructive armaments.

Do you know, You have wasted good 10 minutes writing this useless and crapy post?

Time is money, Think about it

 

[Manticore]

at above.. how do u think we are getting the new f16s and the mlu programme?? by showing u.s that we are using them!

 

[Jako]

yep.

i think jf17 would not even stand against mig21 bison rit?

nope,they can be quite effective against the mig29 and mirages.....but mig21 isnt the choice against jf17......but su30mki is in a different league alltogether...thnx

 

[Arsalan]

nik007 you are 100% right!

JF17 cannot stand against a MIG21!

no chance!!

the reason are obvoius,

the JF17 is not made to keep it stanging like the LCA standing for decades and might no soon be Laid (to rest), JF17 is for flying!!

even if it need to stand on ground, it do not need a Mig21 to stand against as it have its own wheels to stand on!

so you were right!

thankyou both for this informative disscussion of yours,
i hope all the forum members have benifited from your posts!!

regards!

 

[IceCold]

1) jf 17 is 10 years after MKI but still nowhere near superiority on any
grounds.
2) this thread should be LCA & JF-17 since have similar roles of filling numbers.... even china is not using jf-17 as front line fighter.
3) on many issues LCA is superior to JF-17 (please refer wikipedia)

Refer wikipedia, you got to be kidding me. Dude something that can be edited as deemed fit, and you are asking us to refer to it just because some Indian fan boy may have edited it and LCA will appear superior to JF-17. Seriously don't make me laugh.

 

[Owais]

1) jf 17 is 10 years after MKI but still nowhere near superiority on any
grounds.
2) this thread should be LCA & JF-17 since have similar roles of filling numbers.... even china is not using jf-17 as front line fighter.
3) on many issues LCA is superior to JF-17 (please refer wikipedia)

First of all, we DONOT need a Wikipedia troll here and secondly, please elaborate on WHAT Issues LCA is superior to JF17 but still not operational??

 

[IceCold]

I don't know why pakistan not using their JF against Taliban, it will be good practice for their pilot....

But wait a minute there is no single fighter sq. of JF.

And they are comparing with MKI which is already inducted in IAF,about 100+ in numbers......

Fanboyism at its best.

Don't worry dude our pilots have the full pratice they need to keep war mongers at bay, you need not worry about that.

 

[old monk]

Refer wikipedia, you got to be kidding me. Dude something that can be edited as deemed fit, and you are asking us to refer to it just because some Indian fan boy may have edited it and LCA will appear superior to JF-17. Seriously don't make me laugh.

but they have given an link of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex...... don't tell me you don't trust your own institution

 

[hj786]

is there any good link....or a video to the results of a PAf-USAF air exercise?

I don't need links or videos, I am not a foolish kid who lives in denial like some other posters here.
My source is a decorated fighter pilot, somebody who has no need for pissing contests like you trolls because he has been there and done it, that's enough for me. I don't care if you need sources, go whine to somebody else.

if what u say is true, then paf is really good.
unfortunately, u dont have any sources

Unfortunately you and your stupid troll pals have no proof for:
- Mig-21 Bisons being invisible to radar
- MKI being able to beat JF-17 in a future Indo-Pak war scenario
- InAF being able to beat a single air force in the world - so far they have failed against the tiny PAF, never mind all Muslim nations combined
Need I go on?

 

[Owais]

but they have given an link of Pakistan Aeronautical Complex...... don't tell me you don't trust your own institution

sorry I didn't find any PAC link there can you provide us that link??

 

[Jako]

I don't need links or videos, I am not a foolish kid who lives in denial like some other posters here.
My source is a decorated fighter pilot, somebody who has no need for pissing contests like you trolls because he has been there and done it, that's enough for me. I don't care if you need sources, go whine to somebody else.


Unfortunately you and your stupid troll pals have no proof for:
- Mig-21 Bisons being invisible to radar
- MKI being able to beat JF-17 in a future Indo-Pak war scenario
- InAF being able to beat a single air force in the world - so far they have failed against the tiny PAF, never mind all Muslim nations combined
Need I go on?

do you need more reasons to believe mki is better than jf17......what denial!!! But yes jf17 i think is good enough for mig29 and the mirages........mig21 is a generation behind(4 to 3.75)......thnx

 

[old monk]

sorry I didn't find any PAC link there can you provide us that link??

its under specifications