Contrarian
ELITE MEMBER
- Joined
- Oct 23, 2006
- Messages
- 11,571
- Reaction score
- 4
Su-30MKI & JF-17 Air Fight
- Thread starter EagleEyes
- Start date
- Status
You Pakistanis are letting nationalistic feelings get in the way of rational thinking. Here is my take:
PAF enjoyed qualitative superiority decades back although IAF had a 2:1 numerical advantage. If Pakistani sources are to be believed, they even got a 3:1 kill ratio which is very impressive.
h**p://www.subcontinent.com/1971war/skies_west.html
Now, although the IAF mantains the same ratio numerically, the past few years have witnessed tremendous upgrades in the airplanes to such an extent that IAF can enjoy superiority over even chinese PLAAF, forget about pakistan.
h**p://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1492118/posts
Pilot Training: PAF were trained by US pilots earlier and did a fairly good job over the Indians who recieved inferior training. Now, there is SPECULATION that IAF training might even surpass the US which they found after joint exercises. (They both have different doctrines. Its like comparing apples and tomatoes)
h**p://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1128/p01s04-wosc.html
I have found many websites and blogs that praise the IAF perfomances. Here is a US report in which India is mentioned as a country with great potential for air dominance. It also says that IAF has maintained an admirable record of professionalism. Not surprisingly, Pakistan or PAF is not mentioned anywhere.
h**p://www.afa.org/Mitchell/Reports/0908air_dominance.pdf
The outcome of the exercise boils down to [the fact that] they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected, Snowden says. India had developed its own air tactics somewhat in a vacuum. They had done some training with the French that we knew about, but we did not expect them to be a very well-trained air force.
h**p://taiwantp.net/cgi/TWforum.pl?board_id=6&type=show_post&post=449_6
"The Indian Air Force is a world-class air force with great aircraft, great pilots, and great leadership," said Capt. Marcus Wilson, an Aggressor pilot at Nellis and the team chief for the exercise.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2009/articles/jan_09/indian_af_redflag/index.html
Indian AF Su-30K during the Cope India exercise. The Flanker's soundly defeated US Air Force F-15Cs during this exercise, exploiting not only superior BVR radar/missile capabilities, but also the TKS-2 datalink, used to network flights of Flankers
h**p://www.ausairpower.net/flanker.htmlgazine.com/archives/2009/articles/jan_09/indian_af_redflag/index.html
"We came rolling in, like, 'Beep-beep, superpower coming through,'" Colonel Fornof told me. "And we had our eyes opened. We learned a lot. By the third week, we were facing a threat that we weren't prepared to face, because we had underestimated them. They had figured out how to take Russian-built equipment and improve upon it."
Black Hawk Down author Mark Bowden
h**p://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/02/infamous-youtube-star-fornof-r.html
The Chinese get their hardware and technology from the Russians who give it half heartedly (read territorial disputes, illeagal technology copying).
India on the other hand enjoys complete access to the best of what Russia has to offer.
The radar in the su30mki for eg, is highly advanced and highly classified N011BARS which is a variant for their 5th generation PAKFA (which also India will receive) and is currently only employed for the MKI. The su 30s give to India are considered to be the best of flankers, much superior to chinese su30mkk. Forget about Pakistan, but the IAF seems more likely to receive 5th gen planes from Russia much before China can come up with its own. Also there is the induction of 126 MRCA airplanes as well as 4.5th gen Tejas (intended to be a mass produced workhorse. Inducted by 2012).
The writer also seems to greatly underestimate IAF planes which have all the best combinations of Russian, Israeli and some western components. Also India has its own base of very competent scientists who excel in many fields including avionics (h**p://users.erols.com/ziqbal/ih2.htm) and therefore puts a lot into aircraft upgrade and development. The mig21 bison for eg, is invisible to even US airplanes (from the red flag USAF pilot). forget about the chinese/pakistani JF 17.
Also IAF pilots have recently participated in numerous aerial exercises increasing their experience. I am not aware of any major recent exercises of the PAF.
In conclusion, I can say that although PAF has an airforce that can more than match anything an average country can put up, compared with India, it is a different story.
India has the ability to take on Pakistan as well as all Muslim countries combined without external help and still win. (considering from statistics of globalsecurity and other sources)
PAF enjoyed qualitative superiority decades back although IAF had a 2:1 numerical advantage. If Pakistani sources are to be believed, they even got a 3:1 kill ratio which is very impressive.
h**p://www.subcontinent.com/1971war/skies_west.html
Now, although the IAF mantains the same ratio numerically, the past few years have witnessed tremendous upgrades in the airplanes to such an extent that IAF can enjoy superiority over even chinese PLAAF, forget about pakistan.
h**p://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1492118/posts
Pilot Training: PAF were trained by US pilots earlier and did a fairly good job over the Indians who recieved inferior training. Now, there is SPECULATION that IAF training might even surpass the US which they found after joint exercises. (They both have different doctrines. Its like comparing apples and tomatoes)
h**p://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1128/p01s04-wosc.html
I have found many websites and blogs that praise the IAF perfomances. Here is a US report in which India is mentioned as a country with great potential for air dominance. It also says that IAF has maintained an admirable record of professionalism. Not surprisingly, Pakistan or PAF is not mentioned anywhere.
h**p://www.afa.org/Mitchell/Reports/0908air_dominance.pdf
The outcome of the exercise boils down to [the fact that] they ran tactics that were more advanced than we expected, Snowden says. India had developed its own air tactics somewhat in a vacuum. They had done some training with the French that we knew about, but we did not expect them to be a very well-trained air force.
h**p://taiwantp.net/cgi/TWforum.pl?board_id=6&type=show_post&post=449_6
"The Indian Air Force is a world-class air force with great aircraft, great pilots, and great leadership," said Capt. Marcus Wilson, an Aggressor pilot at Nellis and the team chief for the exercise.
http://www.codeonemagazine.com/archives/2009/articles/jan_09/indian_af_redflag/index.html
Indian AF Su-30K during the Cope India exercise. The Flanker's soundly defeated US Air Force F-15Cs during this exercise, exploiting not only superior BVR radar/missile capabilities, but also the TKS-2 datalink, used to network flights of Flankers
h**p://www.ausairpower.net/flanker.htmlgazine.com/archives/2009/articles/jan_09/indian_af_redflag/index.html
"We came rolling in, like, 'Beep-beep, superpower coming through,'" Colonel Fornof told me. "And we had our eyes opened. We learned a lot. By the third week, we were facing a threat that we weren't prepared to face, because we had underestimated them. They had figured out how to take Russian-built equipment and improve upon it."
Black Hawk Down author Mark Bowden
h**p://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/02/infamous-youtube-star-fornof-r.html
The Chinese get their hardware and technology from the Russians who give it half heartedly (read territorial disputes, illeagal technology copying).
India on the other hand enjoys complete access to the best of what Russia has to offer.
The radar in the su30mki for eg, is highly advanced and highly classified N011BARS which is a variant for their 5th generation PAKFA (which also India will receive) and is currently only employed for the MKI. The su 30s give to India are considered to be the best of flankers, much superior to chinese su30mkk. Forget about Pakistan, but the IAF seems more likely to receive 5th gen planes from Russia much before China can come up with its own. Also there is the induction of 126 MRCA airplanes as well as 4.5th gen Tejas (intended to be a mass produced workhorse. Inducted by 2012).
The writer also seems to greatly underestimate IAF planes which have all the best combinations of Russian, Israeli and some western components. Also India has its own base of very competent scientists who excel in many fields including avionics (h**p://users.erols.com/ziqbal/ih2.htm) and therefore puts a lot into aircraft upgrade and development. The mig21 bison for eg, is invisible to even US airplanes (from the red flag USAF pilot). forget about the chinese/pakistani JF 17.
Also IAF pilots have recently participated in numerous aerial exercises increasing their experience. I am not aware of any major recent exercises of the PAF.
In conclusion, I can say that although PAF has an airforce that can more than match anything an average country can put up, compared with India, it is a different story.
India has the ability to take on Pakistan as well as all Muslim countries combined without external help and still win. (considering from statistics of globalsecurity and other sources)
pakpower
FULL MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 14, 2009
- Messages
- 372
- Reaction score
- 0
Baby ohh Baby stop Day Dreaming and search the facts which always remains the facts. Well I found out this Day Dreaming in most of the young indians guys which is good for them but not in actual reality.
If you enjoy by having day dreaming then keep on dreaming enjoy guys these are not the facts which you revealed above.
Baby ohh Baby stop Day Dreaming and search the facts which always remains the facts. Well I found out this Day Dreaming in most of the young indians guys which is good for them but not in actual reality.
OK. I suppose people who wrote those sources were also dreaming with me?
hj786
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2008
- Messages
- 773
- Reaction score
- 0
When will moderators here take action against these stupid 10 year old trolls? They refuse to bring sources to back anything they say while thumping their chests.
Bringing up Cope India shouting their flankers beat F-15Cs while forgetting to mention F-15s had no AWACS, no AMRAAMs, huge numerical disadvantage, unfamiliar terrain. Then their ONLY source for their flankers having "BVR superiority" is an Australian article that is universally ridiculed. Of course they don't dare bring that article up on Western forums because they will be laughed at and proved wrong.
Then there's the part where they think PAF doesn't do exercises, meanwhile PAF pilots here talk about how they go watch Red Flag. PAF goes over to Turkey to train with TuAF, Germans, Americans and others at Anatolian Eagle and we hear that their anti-BVR tactics and ECM equipment worked so well that nobody got a simulated BVRAAM kill on a PAF F-16.
Of course they forget that PAF instruct and fly for several Arab air forces in the latest F-16s, Mirage 2000s, etc.
While these kids brag that their upgraded Mig-21s shot down F-15s in exercises, they don't know that PAF in an exercise with USAF has F-15 kills while flying... original Chinese-built Mig-19s! Yes, the Mig-21's predecessor with no upgrades whatsoever - no radar, no EW/ECM, no datalink, nothing except a martin baker ejection seat and a pair of AIM-9L has kills on the F-15. Of course the USAF said exactly the same thing then as they did when India needed big bad flankers and upgraded Mig-21 to beat them... "we underestimated them, their tactics were totally unexpected".
Then there's JF-17. These trolls still don't understand how to counter a 12 million dollar "3rd generation upgraded J-7" with a thrust/weight of 1, F-16A agility, helmet mounted targeting, AWACS datalink, ~100km radar range and the latest Chinese missile tech that's based on the InAF's very own R-77. So they just come here whining that "you Pakistanis are being nationalistic. JF-17 is crap because we say so." Keep dreaming, kiddies.
"India has the ability to take on Pakistan as well as all Muslim countries combined without external help and still win."
"India can get air superiority over PLAAF."
"Mig-21 bison is invisible to radar."
Prove it. Oh wait, you can't because it's all BS. Never mind. BTW we're still waiting for those surgical strikes you kids got excited about some time ago... did the big bad InAF chicken out? A couple hundred F-7s and Mirages from the 60s scared away the latest flankers? No way.
Dear moderators - how about sending these trolls on a one way all-expenses paid trip to Banistan?
Bringing up Cope India shouting their flankers beat F-15Cs while forgetting to mention F-15s had no AWACS, no AMRAAMs, huge numerical disadvantage, unfamiliar terrain. Then their ONLY source for their flankers having "BVR superiority" is an Australian article that is universally ridiculed. Of course they don't dare bring that article up on Western forums because they will be laughed at and proved wrong.
Then there's the part where they think PAF doesn't do exercises, meanwhile PAF pilots here talk about how they go watch Red Flag. PAF goes over to Turkey to train with TuAF, Germans, Americans and others at Anatolian Eagle and we hear that their anti-BVR tactics and ECM equipment worked so well that nobody got a simulated BVRAAM kill on a PAF F-16.
Of course they forget that PAF instruct and fly for several Arab air forces in the latest F-16s, Mirage 2000s, etc.
While these kids brag that their upgraded Mig-21s shot down F-15s in exercises, they don't know that PAF in an exercise with USAF has F-15 kills while flying... original Chinese-built Mig-19s! Yes, the Mig-21's predecessor with no upgrades whatsoever - no radar, no EW/ECM, no datalink, nothing except a martin baker ejection seat and a pair of AIM-9L has kills on the F-15. Of course the USAF said exactly the same thing then as they did when India needed big bad flankers and upgraded Mig-21 to beat them... "we underestimated them, their tactics were totally unexpected".
Then there's JF-17. These trolls still don't understand how to counter a 12 million dollar "3rd generation upgraded J-7" with a thrust/weight of 1, F-16A agility, helmet mounted targeting, AWACS datalink, ~100km radar range and the latest Chinese missile tech that's based on the InAF's very own R-77. So they just come here whining that "you Pakistanis are being nationalistic. JF-17 is crap because we say so." Keep dreaming, kiddies.
"India has the ability to take on Pakistan as well as all Muslim countries combined without external help and still win."
"India can get air superiority over PLAAF."
"Mig-21 bison is invisible to radar."
Prove it. Oh wait, you can't because it's all BS. Never mind. BTW we're still waiting for those surgical strikes you kids got excited about some time ago... did the big bad InAF chicken out? A couple hundred F-7s and Mirages from the 60s scared away the latest flankers? No way.
Dear moderators - how about sending these trolls on a one way all-expenses paid trip to Banistan?
Last edited:
Arsalan
THINK TANK CHAIRMAN
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2008
- Messages
- 18,178
- Reaction score
- 65
- Country
- Location
well brother i dont want to repeat the same post again and again but ithink you do not understand what the great indain
and myself 
have been trying to tell you!! dear how the hell can we compare indian with any power in this world! you talk about there Mig 21
,, trust me even if they were flying world war-I bi-planes they would have easily defeated the dumb USAF
, not because the reason you mentioned that the US were not having AMRAAM or the AWACS, but because the IAF is flown by indian pilots, people with super natural powers!! 
there palnes as i saod earlier are data linked to BHAGWAN and they will whip out anyone and everone from the air!!
i hope you understand my point and in future take care of how to replay to these greay people otherwise they are going to kill you by shooting you vai your net!! beleive me bro they are that advance
paritosh
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Dec 26, 2008
- Messages
- 3,363
- Reaction score
- 0
- Country
- Location
is there any good link....or a video to the results of a PAf-USAF air exercise?
PAFAce
SENIOR MEMBER
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2009
- Messages
- 1,637
- Reaction score
- 0
Three cheers for hj786! Remind me to never tick him off!
Just a few days ago I saw a video on youtube ranking the Su-30MKI as the second best aircraft in the world, and calling the JF-17 a "3rd generation platform with some 4th generation capabilities". I tried to suggest that the guy do some research, but when I got the same old BS from him as you find on this thread, I decided to cut my losses and get the eff out. It really is like banging your head against a wall, only much more frustrating.
If you notice, most sensible people now stay away from this thread altogether. I was going to do the same, but I had to reply to your post. Now, let's let this trash-fest die off on its own.
u r actually backing up a guy who makes tall claims with no proof?
su30mki is not 2nd best, its 3rd. 2nd is eurofighter
I think in real combat we just do not know enough cause the F22 loses in wvr arena even from a T38. Certainly from a f16. When we see the whole system then the F22 is huge and expensive. You need sats, costly maintenance and surely numbers. I think the dominance by F22 is a bit far fetched. A nuclear nation will not accept that dominance and sofar the latest US planes could only achieve dominance after years of manipulation and degradation of the opponent (politicially, economically and technically). Nations like India and Pakistan are not suspectible to that. Nation like Russia and China are far above that level. So the dominance will be for the third world which hardly can achieve a decent airforce.
India is gradually moving from Mig21 era to more regional force. The problem is that the nation that surround it are not very happy with that. The plus is that India needs to import superiority and that leads to more and more problems. I do not mean that India has no workforce or intellectuals. The contrary is true. The produce very big and impressive numbers of well educated people. But in the field of defence or military equipment they are more basic then nations like China and Pakistan. The fact remains... Israel and South Africa showed. North Korea and Iran do the same... If you are treated like a paria you will have better results then a nation that gets all the support. India gets help from every nation (greed based) but is can not succeed in making Arjun/LCA etc. Why? It has the luxary of able to buy it. Same happens with arabs. They are filled with cash and hardly have achieven anything else then that. UAE shifted to real estate but that is pretty a dead end. Arab nations import everything and sofar exported wordl class items like Osama. They have no democarcy and the top is as corrupt as possible. They cannot threat Israel (not personally supported cause we should accept it as a nation) nor are they able to work as a team or decrease poverty under muslims. I think the pride of being a fellow muslim decreases when you are able to visit an arab nation...
Ok, let us return to the topic. Both India and Pakistan are not easy targets. Even outdated equipment in these hands is impressive. They both have pretty strong national feelings. They both posses power (in anyway) to get what they want. If that means totally boycot then they accept it as a fate. At the moment they are showing that while they both were third world almost 2 decades ago they now posses military power to be threat to 99% of the world. Only a few nations are able to stop them and then it will not mean a walk in the park. Adding to that is that they both are responsible nations. They have fought a few wars but they handled it much better then other developed nations. They never conquered other continents nor are a threat to others.
India is gradually moving from Mig21 era to more regional force. The problem is that the nation that surround it are not very happy with that. The plus is that India needs to import superiority and that leads to more and more problems. I do not mean that India has no workforce or intellectuals. The contrary is true. The produce very big and impressive numbers of well educated people. But in the field of defence or military equipment they are more basic then nations like China and Pakistan. The fact remains... Israel and South Africa showed. North Korea and Iran do the same... If you are treated like a paria you will have better results then a nation that gets all the support. India gets help from every nation (greed based) but is can not succeed in making Arjun/LCA etc. Why? It has the luxary of able to buy it. Same happens with arabs. They are filled with cash and hardly have achieven anything else then that. UAE shifted to real estate but that is pretty a dead end. Arab nations import everything and sofar exported wordl class items like Osama. They have no democarcy and the top is as corrupt as possible. They cannot threat Israel (not personally supported cause we should accept it as a nation) nor are they able to work as a team or decrease poverty under muslims. I think the pride of being a fellow muslim decreases when you are able to visit an arab nation...
Ok, let us return to the topic. Both India and Pakistan are not easy targets. Even outdated equipment in these hands is impressive. They both have pretty strong national feelings. They both posses power (in anyway) to get what they want. If that means totally boycot then they accept it as a fate. At the moment they are showing that while they both were third world almost 2 decades ago they now posses military power to be threat to 99% of the world. Only a few nations are able to stop them and then it will not mean a walk in the park. Adding to that is that they both are responsible nations. They have fought a few wars but they handled it much better then other developed nations. They never conquered other continents nor are a threat to others.
- Status
Similar threads
- Article
- Article
