Sino-Pak Relations as US-Pak Tensions Rise

[53fd]

Pakistan shouldn't be expecting China to 'replace' the US, & I doubt they expect that. The US had a special vested interest because of the mess it left over in the region in the 90s, & then because of the 9/11 as well. While the US gave Pakistan $21 billion over the course of 10 years, Pakistan suffered losses of over $68 billion allying with the US. Pakistan lost more troops & civilians than everyone in Afghanistan combined, yet the US alleges that Pakistan didn't do enough. It is a good thing that China does not have the same kind of vested interests in the region that the US had, because its expectations would be higher, & it gives Islamabad a chance to have a sovereign foreign policy in the region without external influences. Which will mean Pakistan will learn how to be self-reliant. I can only see that as a good thing.

 

[KS]

Pakistan shouldn't be expecting China to 'replace' the US, & I doubt they expect that. The US had a special vested interest because of the mess it left over in the region in the 90s, & then because of the 9/11 as well. While the US gave Pakistan $21 billion over the course of 10 years, Pakistan suffered losses of over $68 billion allying with the US. Pakistan lost more troops & civilians than everyone in Afghanistan combined, yet the US alleges that Pakistan didn't do enough. It is a good thing that China does not have the same kind of vested interests in the region that the US had, because its expectations would be higher, & it gives Islamabad a chance to have a sovereign foreign policy in the region without external influences. Which will mean Pakistan will learn how to be self-reliant. I can only see that as a good thing.

Speculations/opinions don't stand the test of facts.

Any hard statistical proof for the 'figure' ?

 

[Manticore]

Speculations/opinions don't stand the test of facts.

Any hard statistical proof for the 'figure' ?

Pak says it's suffered $68bn loss on US-led war on terror - Yahoo!

 

[53fd]

Speculations/opinions don't stand the test of facts.

Any hard statistical proof for the 'figure' ?

http://finance.gov.pk/survey/chapter_11/Special Section_1.pdf

---------- Post added at 03:58 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:56 AM ----------

Page 3 of the IMF report:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2010/cr10183.pdf

 

[KS]

http://finance.gov.pk/survey/chapter_11/Special Section_1.pdf

I remember saying 'speculations' dont cut ice.

Any Govt can come up with any cooked figure to prove a point. Heck even corporates do that. Eg. Satyam.

What was the break down of these losses ? How did it accrue ? Were the figures vetted by an independent, credible international agency ?

I bet those details wont be there.

What we have is a bunch of numbers from a Govt that was saying they had no idea where OBL was when in fact he was just 800 yards from the PMA.

Page 3 of the IMF report:

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2010/cr10183.pdf

Did you see the 'source' for the image ? - Finance Division, GoP.

---------- Post added at 04:34 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:33 AM ----------

Pak says it's suffered $68bn loss on US-led war on terror - Yahoo!

Operative word is "Pak says".

Indian Govt too says Dawood is in Pakistan. Is it true ?

 

[Spitfighter]

American government is very stubborn and very arrogant and just cares about its own interests.

In today's politics, Pakistan and U.S. have very few mutual interests so dont expect U.S. to be so kind with Pakistan. Soviet threat is gone. Now all of a sudden "terrorist" threat. Give me a break!!!
China and Pakistan will have the same interests until there is an India on the world map.

That's exactly where a lot of you are wrong. I've always been a little surprised by how many posts on here are so strikingly defensive, both of your own government's policies and those of your so called 'allies'.

As hard as this may sound to believe, no country cares about anything other than its own interests. Try looking at things from China's perspective for a second. As far as they've come, they're up against 50 years of American, Russian & European hegemony in their backyard. America has turned East Asia (Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan) into a fortress leaving China with a sole, questionable ally in North Korea. I'm not going to bother talking about Vietnam, Thailand, Indonesia and the Phillipines since they're militarily inconsequential at the moment. If that wasn't enough, the Chinese depend on developed markets for sustained growth. If America stops borrowing the Chinse will have nobody to sell to. The global economy is essentially a complex network of IOU's.

Getting back to China's priorities though, we're talking about 1.4 billion people, prosperous rivals and of course, Taiwan. You should spend some time reading about the Taiwanese military and their modernization plans. If you think Kashmir is a big deal, think about 23 million+ people with a per capita income of around 30k. Regardless of where relations stand at the moment, don't forget that every time things get interesting America parks a CBG or two right smack in the middle of the Taiwanese strait. And no, China won't simply 'nuke everything' every time it gets into a spat with a stronger rival.

China and Pakistan will have the same interests until there is an India on the world map.

Lolz. You're close, but not quite there yet. To me it seems like China and Pakistan only have similar interests because there IS an India on the map. Yes, there's a difference.

You're talking about a country that's growing at 10%, has a seat at the UNSC and is trying to blunt American influence in its backyard. You really think India is that high on China's priorities list? Besides, why should they waste their blood and effort when they have you to do it for them?

If I was Chinese I'd do exactly what they do: make money, squeeze Taiwan economically, watch as America ties itself down in a global war, sell you a gun (make more money) and watch you shoot a weak competitor of mine to make sure he stays that way. Then I'd laugh all the way to the bank while you cheer me on. China's goal in life isn't to wipe a poverty stricken nation like India off the map, they're content with Pakistan putting a damper on things from time to time.

I think the Korean analogy is far more applicable to the sub continent than Israel and Palestine. As far as Pakistan is concerned, we all know where your priorities stand. From India's perspective, its easier just to sit back and watch while your strategic interests collide with the rest of the planet. The Chinese will come to the rescue of course, just as they did with the N.Koreans (lolz). Don't believe me? ask yourself how much aid Pakistan received this year for flood relief and you'll have your answer.

 

[ChinaToday]

there is an old saying "if you do not have a friend who will tell you the truth , pay an enemy to do so"
take it any way you wish , but the fact of the matter is the US has helped you out in the past . and in all probability, will do so in the future.
as in any friendship there are ups and downs , you seem to be going through one , fix it, don't do looking for new friends . as to us telling you to bow to America? when did we do that mate? we have a relationship with the US too , do you see us bowing to them ? any relationship is what you chose it to be .

the concern of all Pakistanis should be how to pay back a loan from the IMF due early next year. the Chinese have never helped you in the past financially , but the US has . they differed your loans . now its up to you to judge who is a better friend.

What you are saying is you rather to have a freiend that gave you a few bucks, handed you a knife instructed you to go kill for him,then abused your family, slaped you in the face in the public for all to see, than some one who give you moral support, help you to learn new skills so you can stand on your own feet and stand by you when you are in trouble?

 

[Cheetah786]

I dont understand why people jump at the chance of blaming china for all the wrong doings of Pakistani politicians that are and will continue to play politics with her for personals gains Pakistanis themselves aren't investing in Pakistan cause of the security situation.

If and when people in Pakistan wake up security situation is under control all investors be chines or others will be back but till then we have to suffer at the policies of the past which most politicians and generals aren't willing to let go as only thing matters to them is personal gains political stability and security matters look at USA worlds biggest economy S&P downgraded there credit worthiness cause of politicians playing games but no one questions that as soon as it comes to china wow look at bad Chinese running from Pakistan sorry dude its called investment means people who spend money wants return and stay alive to enjoy it.

 

[Cheetah786]

“Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime” simplest way to put it Chinese are willing to teach us how to fish.

 

[Obambam]

I dont understand why people jump at the chance of blaming china for all the wrong doings of Pakistani politicians that are and will continue to play politics with her for personals gains Pakistanis themselves aren't investing in Pakistan cause of the security situation.

If and when people in Pakistan wake up security situation is under control all investors be chines or others will be back but till then we have to suffer at the policies of the past which most politicians and generals aren't willing to let go as only thing matters to them is personal gains political stability and security matters look at USA worlds biggest economy S&P downgraded there credit worthiness cause of politicians playing games but no one questions that as soon as it comes to china wow look at bad Chinese running from Pakistan sorry dude its called investment means people who spend money wants return and stay alive to enjoy it.

We have seen enough and have enough experience to ignore it. If you have been paying attention, it will become apparent. It is often the same groups of people or nationality who is putting in all the effort and trying in vain to prove to our community that there is a rift and they are more than happy in the process of doing so. End of the day it is not what they say that matters, it is what we feel about our nations, our long historical friendship, and understanding of any ill intentions that matters.

Of course people would look for the easiest of all things to compare China with and yes you got it - Aids.
However, you have summed that one up very well with the following quote: “Give a man a fish; you have fed him for today. Teach a man to fish; and you have fed him for a lifetime”.

The questions people should ask themselves should instead be - Would people prefer to be useless and dependent upon foreign aids (can be taken away from you)? or to possess the knowledge and tools needed for them to look after themselves (to become independent)?

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

it's only bhartis who keep harping on about this subject.....quite frankly, Pakistan just wants to be comfortable within its 'zone' and bring back the strengths of its economy and prosperity to a path which it was on just a few years back before the Afghan war and surrounding political drama began to have its blowback effects on our country

Pakistanis are a people with huge aspirations when given the chance. We may have our political or other differences, but Pakistanis are united in their thinking that cooperation with neighbours like China will yield us results. It's a mutually beneficial and healthy friendship which has existed since 1960s....

some nincompoops here try to create the impression that Pakistan is "going" to China and "leaving U.S." -- as if "switching alliances" is like switching from Levis jeans and polo shirt to slacks and a three-piece suit, or vice versa.

where Pakistan is now, it has some critical decisions to make...but more so encompassing the domestic front. On foreign policy, Pakistanis will always be good at playing the balancing game. It suits them. Where we see eye to eye -- we will cooperate. Where interests diverge, we will desist. That's what any country will do, not just Pakistan.

I think with the Chinese, the relationship is more than just a transactional one. Furthermore, as the U.S. moves towards countries like hindustan --to use as some sort of "bulwark" against China --and arming/supporting our long-time enemy country -- it seems natural there would be a switch in tides. However with that said, doesn't mean that USA embassy will be some abandoned building used to store livestock and stacks of hay and that there would be no cooperation on diplomatic, commercial or even perhaps military level.


there are some cases where you actually do have to look beyond politics, no matter how hard that may be.....

 

[53fd]

I remember saying 'speculations' dont cut ice.

Any Govt can come up with any cooked figure to prove a point. Heck even corporates do that. Eg. Satyam.

What was the break down of these losses ? How did it accrue ? Were the figures vetted by an independent, credible international agency ?

I bet those details wont be there.

What we have is a bunch of numbers from a Govt that was saying they had no idea where OBL was when in fact he was just 800 yards from the PMA.

Did you see the 'source' for the image ? - Finance Division, GoP.
Operative word is "Pak says".

Indian Govt too says Dawood is in Pakistan. Is it true ?

How would you define 'speculation'? The independent, credible, international agencies that you are talking about, like the Moody's, S&P's, Fitch are not doing their job either. The figures I gave you broke down the costs by year, there is detailed information on how these figures were generated, so it is hardly speculation. In that case, almost everything we hear today is speculation. So unless you can find any faults in the figures, it's best to accept them. If the US government had generated these figures, you would have accepted them, even though they are just as notorious as the Pakistan government, or any government, of doing 'such things'.

 

[Omar1984]

U.S. should invest in business and infrastructure of Pakistan to build Pakistan like China is doing to win the hearts and minds of Pakistanis.

To most Pakistanis:

USA is doing this to Pakistan:

China is doing this to Pakistan:

In other words, U.S. is detroying Pakistan while China is building Pakistan.

 

[Abu Zolfiqar]

well in fairness to the US -- it would be unfair to deny that they've been generous in the past. They helped us during 2005 earthquake, they were actually VERY proactive.

there are unheard of initiatives which state department has undertaken which did help Pakistan --like building schools and creating a teachers exchange program (which still takes place today)

unfortunately, their foreign policy in the region and especially U.S.'s recent spat with Pakistan (exacerbated by Raymond Davis's, drones debate and harsh language viewed as enemy language) sure do not help ameliorate the situation

Pakistanis feel that it's been a transactional relationship rather than a face to face one.....we haven't been good allies to eachother, there are things we do that piss them off and things they do which piss us off.......

it's stupid to say that both countries should declare eachother enemies and/or fight eachother and/or abandon eachother....U.S. is still a valuable market for our exports. Jobs would be lost and economy would be damaged if there were cut in ties; but we definitely arent headed in a good direction and if they feel we support their enemies (while it is confirmed they are supporting ours) then nothing wrong with letting this bilateral thing take a 'breather' and sit on back-burner....meaning we recognize eachother and trade, but not necessarily go to eachother when we or they 'need' something

 

[President Camacho]

While it is true that China can not replace the US, even if it wanted to, for Pakistan it might come as a blessing in disguise.

The dependency and corruption that comes from the aid assisted economy can cripple the system of the country for a long time.

South Asians play chess, but the Americans have mastered poker. No matter how sharp a player you are, they will simply buy you out. The ill-effects of the aids, that I noted above, are the main reasons often cited for lack of growth in those African countries that are extremely rich in natural resources, yet struggle to maintain a decent economy. But if a country tries to come out of it, sanctions follow, and the country goes back to stone age.

It is a phase that China and India both had to go through, and had to compromise on many important fronts. This dependency is legacy of imperialism (which is not wrong at all - in my view) that is bound to make the weaker countries dependent, for a long time to come.

However, things are not so black and white. This world is much more complex than aids and corruption. The developing countries are like the trees facing the powerful wind blow of the rich west. If you bend, you survive, if you stand, you will be uprooted - in a second.

Emotions run high in this forum, and I do not want anyone to misconstrue my words as criticism of the policies of the west. Given a chance, the South Asian countries like ours would do the same, if not worse.

So what is Pakistan supposed to do? I believe best for Pakistan is to maintain a balance between China and the US, and take the only aid from the US that would help sustain the economy - and stop at that.

But since economy depends a lot on law and order, first thing for Pakistani Administration would be to curb the extremism running amok in the country. It is one of the major causes for the unrest in the country and turning it into a very volatile and unpredictable nation.

Second, once the country looks sound enough, it should invite the Chinese to invest in Pakistan. Opening up the mines would be a great, and most importantly - a lucrative gesture. Such a gesture on Pakistan's behalf can provide it with a leverage that can be used to require the Chinese investors to employ the locals in its projects. It can be done only if the Pakistanis stop thinking of their natural resources as some infinite source of power/money, because it is not. That obsession must stop.

Third, Pakistan should open its markets, somewhat, to the Indians as well. That will create a sense of competition among the local manufacturers to improve their quality and quantity to the point where they can even work on exporting their produce.

And finally, the gravest of all, is for Pakistan Admin and Establishment to realize that their tussle with India and the US in Afghanistan is turning it into another unsolvable Kashmir for them. Pakistan's economy, and diplomatic sway in the international arena is not yet strong enough for them to attain strong influence in Afghanistan, at least not yet. The elongation of this tussle, where they are at odds with more powerful adversaries, is draining the economy at a high pace.

I know many Pakistanis here will not like what I said in the last point, but they should see how Pakistan is completely isolated, even deserted by China in the matters pertaining to Afghanistan. If it continues, it will be bloodbath again, though mostly in Afghanistan, it will suck the Pakistani economy dry at the same time.

Such steps are going to require immense will power on the part of the Administration and the Pakistan Army, but neither the US, nor China, nor any other replacement, can help Pakistan with it. It has to come from none but Pakistan.