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Singh to visit Pakistan in March

For us it is not hence the disagreement !
@Armstrong
Pakistan earlier had as clearly pointed out that before Kashmir is resolved, Pakistan will not move or talk on any other issue like trade.

India clearly pointed out, that IF you are willing to discuss other issues apart from Kashmir, like trade, investment, etc, etc, India is willing. If Pakistan is not willing, we are more than happy to not discuss anything.

Now that Pakistani economy and society in general is taking a massive beating, Pakistani's agreed to start trade letting go of their previous stance that nothing can move forward as long as Kashmir is not sorted out.

Our position remains the same as it was 2 decades ago. Kashmir is non negotiable. If you want to discuss anything else, you are welcome, if not, let it be.

Pakistan has moved forward. Pakistan has already implemented about 70% of what is required for MFN already in the last 3 years.
1. Increasing the small positive list to a large positive list.
2. Changing from a large positive list to a large negative list.
3. Reducing the large negative list to a relatively smaller negative list.

The last step remains to complete the process

4. Removing the negative list altogether. This would automatically imply MFN/Non Discriminatory Market Access is granted.

Now you as a Pakistani must understand, if you want trade and investment and better security situation for your country, you must start full fledged trade. If you donot want that, by all means go back to your previous govt position that no other issue can be solved till Kashmir remains pending for you. Because Kashmir would also remain pending for you after another 70 years. For us, Kashmir is a non issue.

AG what ? What the heck does that acronym stand for ?
AGPL - Actual Ground Position Line.
I understand the popular perception in Pakistan is that India and Pakistan are both on Siachen and staring at each other. That India took some part of Siachen and Pakistan took the rest to safeguard it.
That however is not the truth.

India is sitting on the Siachen Glacier. Pakistan Army is not even on 1 sq meter of Siachen. It is sitting below Siachen near the ridge.

We have the entire Siachen Glacier.

Now, Pakistan is asking us to withdraw from Siachen. The question India asks again and again is - why?
Why should we withdraw after so much effort to capture it in the first place? Peace is not good enough of an answer.

Kargil stands out preeminantly as an example, when India withdrew from the LoC for winters under a Gentlemen's Agreement with Pakistan Army (both sides vacated in winters) and PA snuck in and created war. When the Prime Minister of Pakistan himself was not in control of the actions of his war mongering Army.

Now you may argue that that is no longer the case in Pakistan. That things in Pakistan have drastically changed since 1999. PA is under civilian authority, etc etc.

But for India, we donot care about the internal situation/politics of Pakistan. We have seen what happens if we withdraw. And so using this exact same argument the Indian Army made the GoI understand- and GoI agreed - that withdrawing from Siachen is not an option UNLESS:

Pakistan Govt and Pakistan Army agree to sign on GPS authenticated AGPL. That would mark exactly where Pakistan Army is right now and Indian Army is right now, so that they later cannot start claiming anything contrary to their own public or the world.

What it would also do is implicitly make Indian claim on Siachen legal.

Pakistan Army is reluctant to do that.
Now the ball again is in Pakistan's court. As long as they dont sign the AGPL, India is happy to sit pretty on it. This ensures that Pakistan will never get Siachen.

If Pakistan signs the AGPL, India will withdraw but they will be handing it over to India legally for all practical purposes. The benefit here however is that if India withdraws, Pakistan too can withdraw from Gyari.

Unlike India, Pakistan is finding it rather hard and expensive to maintain troop presence and related logistics over there. Let me inform you at this time that the cost for India to maintain its entire presence in Siachen is negligible. The human costs are bare minimal. India has achieved zero human loss in Siachen because of better extreme high altitude equipment by DRDO and purchases for our scientific arctic station.

As you can see Pakistan is not getting Siachen either ways, but it will save money and lives by signing AGPL. As of now, PA is reluctant to do it. The ball is squarely in their court.

Expound on that a bit more, if you will !
Okay. In this case, its Pakistan that has the advantage.
International guidelines say that creek should be divided in the middle of the river. This is what India wants, however Pakistan claims the majority of the creek. They know its not doable, but they are using it to prolong negotiations over the years.

This would have been settled by now but for one simple fact.
The creek is moving. The river is moving eastwards - towards Indian territory. So the longer Pakistan waits, the more territory it will get even by settling using International standards.

So cant blame Pakistan here, they are being smart. :tup:
So Cross-Border-Terrorism is a two way street; lets talk about it !
Tired. Will discuss this later.
 
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Mr.Singh's visit sounds more personal to me than a political one.He had long back said he wanted to visit his ancestral village in Pakistan..so he's trying not to renege on his promise.
I dont think his visit to Pak will earn him or his grubby party any extra vote...nonetheless the move is welcome.:)

The MFN issue has been going on and off for long now....according to SAFTA everything should be completed by dec 2015...but sooner the better.
Pakistan holds a long positive list of Indian goods.If those are moved to negative list that means from 2000 goods it will be 6800...I hope Pakistan does that for its own interest.

@Armstrong your take on this issue.
I am also of the opinion that USE APNE NANIHAL KI YAAD SATAA RAHI HAI.
 
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I am also of the opinion that USE APNE NANIHAL KI YAAD SATAA RAHI HAI.

See its simple if he visits Pak as Indian PM then he'll enjoy all the 5 star facilities that'll be provided to him.He's smart IMO :)
Oye yaar that man is not sooo bad.Just that he doesn't speak and is the member of a grubby party.
 
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Classic example of personal interest being given more importance over national interest.
Well, good for the opposition anyway!!!
 
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Which industry were you talking abiut chemical or the automobile /heavy equipments industry???
Because as far as I know India wants to invest in the pharma sector...automobile and agricultural sector in Pak.
Chemical. It wasn't investment. Just plain old simple dollars for equipment deal.

Not sure what you really mean by "investment" in Pakistan.

India Pak can only sell to each other. There is no unique advantage of "investment" because labor quality and cost is very similar in dollar terms.

And that's fine by me. I'd rather spend hard cash dollars on my cousins across the border
instead of sending them to far off places.
A bi=product of this is that Indian support staff can come visit us and enjoy our hospitality and some friendly cricket game in the backyard + some banter too. Imagine trying to do the same with Korean guests. Not that I mind eating kimchi :D


Negative points???? Nooooo:hitwall:
I have been arguing with @Armstrong on MFN from last 2 days on this.I have seen India-Pak economical relations going kaput every time there's some disturbance on the borders.
While I think in this regard we must learn a lesson or two from Japan and China...who despite locking horns recently have not curbed their trade relations.

I agree. Pakistan and India must not be held hostage by 2-bit Mullahtic terrorists.

While Pakistan competed with 10 times bigger miltiary across the border by using under hand methods.

But it was all decades ago.

These days international Islamist cabal is trying to hijack the story of our region and I am totally against it.

We may argue with each other to death (literally) but I hate to see someone coming from far off places mucking up our regional tussle. :D


Peace and biryani to you and everyone else
 
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Mr Singh is welcomed in Pakistan.

Please don't visit Defence.pk before you come. :D

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Mr Singh is welcomed in Pakistan.

Please don't visit Defence.pk before you come. :D

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Chemical. It wasn't investment. Just plain old simple dollars for equipment deal.

Not sure what you really mean by "investment" in Pakistan.

India Pak can only sell to each other. There is no unique advantage of "investment" because labor quality and cost is very similar in dollar terms.

And that's fine by me. I'd rather spend hard cash dollars on my cousins across the border
instead of sending them to far off places.
A bi=product of this is that Indian support staff can come visit us and enjoy our hospitality and some friendly cricket game in the backyard + some banter too. Imagine trying to do the same with Korean guests. Not that I mind eating kimchi :D




I agree. Pakistan and India must not be held hostage by 2-bit Mullahtic terrorists.

While Pakistan competed with 10 times bigger miltiary across the border by using under hand methods.

But it was all decades ago.

These days international Islamist cabal is trying to hijack the story of our region and I am totally against it.

We may argue with each other to death (literally) but I hate to see someone coming from far off places mucking up our regional tussle. :D


Peace and biryani to you and everyone else

pehle biryani bhejo then i will tell you my points...and make it veg please :D

Jokes apart...I think we arent doing too bad...in 2004 the trade numbers were close to from $344 million which rose to $3 billion a year by 2010.So we are improving.
IMO open trade between Pakistan and India will be different on Pakistani consumers and producers. In the first phase Pakistani consumers stand to gain while some Pakistani producers will be challenged.And as i said earlier Pakistani exports to India are largely textile related while Indian exports are largely non-textile(automobiles, diesel trucks, black tea..antibiotics and reactive dyes..and chemical stuff)
And yeah investment would have been the wrong word....I am very dilettantish on this topic... I entered this thread as a troll :girl_wacko:
Investment isnt a possibility too as India does not allow Pakistani banks to open branches neither does Pakistan (a potent non-tariff barrier). There are several Indian banks that do not recognize Letter of Credit from Pakistani banks and both countries continue to practice restrictive, city specific, reporting visa regimes...so there goes the "investment" out of the window.
Pakistan and India traded bullets in 1965 and then again in 1971 and as a consequence of trading bullets there was very little trading of goods up until 1996 when India granted MFN status to Pakistan...
Hope we do stop trading "bullets"
And i will send you soan papdi :-)
 
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You are no one to him, so it doesn't matter you...He has family in India, he is everything to them...Why does one has to leave his country...Farak padta hai. :o:

Ehhh tuuun Punjabi vich nahin keh sakdiii ! :P
 
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