Sikhs are much adored in Pakistan

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

^Listen mr. Dabong, firstly, you don't know the first thing about Indian legal system.
The term Hindu as per legal definition (which has precedent) includes all dharmic religions of India. This is why Sikh personal laws come under the Hindu personal law. That does not imply that Sikhs are treated as Hindus (in the religious sense) or that they have to follow Hindu religious practices.

So you are saying that in the legal sense Sikhs are treated as Hindus, but not in th religious sense ...

What is termed as Hindu personal laws is actually a highly secularized framework of personal laws. Whatever religious component is there, is common to all dharmic religions of India.

Now thats an oxymoron - 'Hindu personal law' (speaking of law based in a particular religious ideology) is 'highly secularized'?

So far you have not made a 'complex argument, as you claimed to Dabong, but a rather confused and contradictory one.

 

[Tango25]

So you are saying that in the legal sense Sikhs are treated as Hindus, but not in th religious sense ...

More correctly, Hindus and Sikhs have the same personal laws, which are termed 'Hindu Personal Laws' for historical reasons. They don't attempt to impose Hinduism on Sikhs, and indeed were nothing but an attempt to modernize the personal laws of all dharmic practitioners of India.
These codes are indeed very secular in nature - they do not discriminate on the basis of sex, race, or caste, and they do not accommodate religious dogmas.

'Now thats an oxymoron - 'Hindu personal law' (speaking of law based in a particular religious ideology) is 'highly secularized'? So far you have not made a 'complex argument, as you claimed to Daboong, but a rather confused and contradictory one.

No, as I said, it comes down to the legal definition of the word Hindu (which dates back to the colonial era) as the all adherents of non-Abrahmic faiths or dharmic faiths in India.

It is only an oxymoron if you apply the religious definition of hindu, and not the legal definition.

The definition of the word Hindu itself has changed over time. Pre-colonial, it was used by Persians and the like to identify all the inhabitants of India. Only later did it acquire its current definition as the follower of a certain set of religious practices.

 

[Spring Onion]

Well if you arew a girl and that finds mention here as a special anecdote, let me be particularly polite to you, lest you might be offended...

..

No need to be polit i can counter you even with your harshest attitude too. Just do not call me a man. I am not and i dont like to be called a man.

Thanks

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

More correctly, Hindus and Sikhs have the same personal laws, which are termed 'Hindu Personal Laws' for historical reasons. They don't attempt to impose Hinduism on Sikhs, and indeed were nothing but an attempt to modernize the personal laws of all dharmic practitioners of India.
These codes are indeed very secular in nature - they do not discriminate on the basis of sex, race, or caste, and they do not accommodate religious dogmas.

Is Hinduism not a faith distinct from Sikhism and Jainism? And Sikkhism has influence from Islam and other faiths, so why lump them into one when even today 'Hindu' represents a very specific and different faith from the others.

Something similar to it would be the classification of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as 'Judaic faiths', since they all share common strains and themes. Some refer to all three as 'Abrahamic faiths', given the commonality of Abraham in all three, but unlike what the Indian constitution does, that reference does not take the oldest and impose its nomenclature on the rest.

The Indian constitution, at least the excerpt posted by Dabong, does not make clear at all that the reference is merely to 'interpersonal laws', and the continued argument that the 'codes are secular in nature', is a continued contradiction - the laws are based on religious dogma, they therefore cannot be called 'secular', just as one cannot take the commandments in the Quran interpreted as being against discrimination on the basis of race, gender, and faith as evidence of Islam being a 'secular faith'.

No, as I said, it comes down to the legal definition of the word Hindu (which dates back to the colonial era) as the all adherents of non-Abrahmic faiths or dharmic faiths in India.

It is only an oxymoron if you apply the religious definition of hindu, and not the legal definition.

The 'legal definition' even if you take the argument of historical precedent, still is in reference to a religion based distinction, hence talking of 'secular framework of laws' in conjunction with religious terminology is still an oxymoron. And the mention in the Indian constitution is clearly in the context of religion.

If all this was so 'secular' there should have been no need to mention faith, Hindu or otherwise. The excerpt below has everything to do with religion, and nothing to do with secularism.

Freedom of conscience and free profession, practice and propagation of religion -

(1) Subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of this Part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practice and propagate religion.

(2) Nothing in this article shall affect the operation of any existing law or prevent the State from making any law -

(a) regulating or restricting any economic, political or other secular activity which may be associated with religious practice;

(b) providing for social welfare and reform or the throwing open of Hindu religious institutions of a public character to all classes and sections of Hindus.

Explanation I – The wearing and carrying of kirpans shall be deemed to be included in the profession of the Sikh religion.

Explanation II – In sub-Clause (b) of clause (2), the reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jaina or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly.
http://thelangarhall.com/archives/1327

But in essence that is the point made, legally India continues to use a flawed application of the word Hindu from colonial times, which represents a specific faith distinct from others, to categorize as 'subsets' many other faiths.

Just because a flawed practice has precedent does not make it any less flawed.

 

[Tango25]

Is Hinduism not a faith distinct from Sikhism and Jainism? And Sikkhism has influence from Islam and other faiths, so why lump them into one when even today 'Hindu' represents a very specific and different faith from the others.

Indeed, by its current definition, it is, and as I have explained, they are not "lumped together" in the way that you are suggesting at all.

Something similar to it would be the classification of Judaism, Christianity and Islam as 'Judaic faiths', since they all share common strains and themes. Some refer to all three as 'Abrahamic faiths', given the commonality of Abraham in all three, but unlike what the Indian constitution does, that reference does not take the oldest and impose its nomenclature on the rest.

The constitution, at least the excerpt posted by Dabong, does not make clear at all that the reference is merely to 'interpersonal laws', and the continued argument that the 'codes are secular in nature', is a continued contradiction - the laws are based on religious dogma,
they therefore cannot be called 'secular', just as one cannot take the commandments in the Quran interpreted as being against discrimination on the basis of race, gender, and faith as evidence of Islam being a 'secular faith'.

The Indian constitution is based on British Common Law, not on any Hindu holy book, so I'm afraid I fail to see the point that you are trying to make.

The only part of the constitution which is derived from religion are the Civil laws - laws regarding marriage, inheritance, adoption, etc. etc. which are divided into 3 categories - Hindu, Muslim, and Christian.

Hindu personal laws apply to Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains, Muslim personal laws apply to Muslims, and Christian ones to, well, Christians.
The Hindu personal laws are the most modern of the lot, because they were designed to remove backward religious practices, hence my use of the term "secularized". Other than that, the religious component are common to all the 4 religions and don't discriminate against any of them.

But in essence that is the point made, legally India continues to use a flawed application of the word Hindu from colonial times, which represents a specific faith distinct from others, to categorize as 'subsets' many other faiths.

You could argue that, and certainly many of my fellow Sikhs do agree with your view, which is why they are campaigning to change this classification.

However, the allegation that Sikhs are being denied their religious freedom because of a simple misnomer (or as many would argue, a failure of the legal definition to keep up with the popular one) is highly absurd, and plays into the hands of religious fundamentalists and assorted demagogues who use this insignificant fact to create propaganda that Sikhs are being mistreated in India.

 

[Spring Onion]

More correctly, Hindus and Sikhs have the same personal laws, which are termed 'Hindu Personal Laws' for historical reasons. They don't attempt to impose Hinduism on Sikhs, and indeed were nothing but an attempt to modernize the personal laws of all dharmic practitioners of India.
.

Sikhs have been asking for separation of these laws since long so that confusion about Sikhs being considerd as Hindus could be removed

despite passage of 29 years India still failed and refused to enact Anand Marriage Act for Sikhs which a longstanding demand of the Sikhs.

 

[Tango25]

^And here's an example of someone with an obvious agenda who is attempting to divide Indians over some insignificant piece of legalese.

Indians have got better things to do with their time than fall for all these disgusting tactics. Like develop our country, for example.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Indeed, by its current definition, it is, and as I have explained, they are not "lumped together" in the way that you are suggesting at all.

But your explanation has involved you venturing far afield to make a distinction on the basis of 'religious personal law' , which you had to describe as 'secularized' (an oxymoron in the context of any religious dogma, no matter how much you claim the laws are 'fair') and common to all faiths categorized under Hinduism.

None of this, the 'fine detail' of your explanation, is clear from the excerpt posted from the Indian constitution.

The Indian constitution is based on British Common Law, not on any Hindu holy book, so I'm afraid I fail to see the point that you are trying to make.

Whatever it is based on, the argument made was that the there was an incorrect classification of Sikhs as Hindus.

The only part of the constitution which is derived from religion are the Civil laws - laws regarding marriage, inheritance, adoption, etc. etc. which are divided into 3 categories - Hindu, Muslim, and Christian.

Hindu personal laws apply to Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists and Jains, Muslim personal laws apply to Muslims, and Christian ones to, well, Christians.
The Hindu personal laws are the most modern of the lot, because they were designed to remove backward religious practices, hence my use of the term "secularized". Other than that, the religious component are common to all the 4 religions and don't discriminate against any of them.

The discussion is over the classification of various faiths, incorrectly, under the nomenclature of Hinduism, not on what aspects of the Indian constitution are based on religion.

Regardless of how fair and equitable religious interpretations are (and indeed Islamic interpretations can be as well, though perhaps not in Indian Muslim common law), the use of the term secular in their context is inaccurate.

You could argue that, and certainly many of my fellow Sikhs do agree with your view, which is why they are campaigning to change this classification.

Alright then, end of discussion on that point.

However, the allegation that Sikhs are being denied their religious freedom because of a simple misnomer (or as many would argue, a failure of the legal definition to keep up with the popular one) is highly absurd, and plays into the hands of religious fundamentalists and assorted demagogues who use this insignificant fact to create propaganda that Sikhs are being mistreated in India.

To what degree the lumping together of various faiths under the banner of Hinduism is considered an affront, by members of one of the communities 'lumped in', would depend upon how the community or those seeking to represent it feel about the issue. In this case some obviously do feel an affront enough to campaign for change, while others like you do not.

 

[garibnawaz]

Re: Sikhs are much adored in Pakistan

Only Sikh traffic warden in Lahore police resigns over turban abuse

Lahore, Apr 23 (ANI): Gulab Singh, the only Sikh warden in traffic police in Lahore, reportedly resigned last weekend after one his colleagues misbehaved with him and even tossed up his turban. After submitting his resignation, he said that it was a routine affair that his colleagues misbehaved with him and made fun of him being a Sikh.

He said that he was being discriminated against for not being a Muslim due to which his colleagues made fun of his religion. Singh often took his complaints to his seniors, but they did not take the matter seriously, because of which he was forced to resign.

Singh claimed that the trouble began four days prior to his resignation, when he was deputed, along with wardens Asif and Faisal, to manage traffic. He said that Faisal had suddenly left his post at about 3pm. Later, a senior asked about him and also broadcasted a wireless message, inquiring about Faisals whereabouts. At about 7 pm, Faisal returned and misbehaved with Singh for having informed the senior about his absence, the Daily Times quoted him as saying.

According to him, Faisal left yet again at 7:30 pm and bribed the officials at wireless control with dinner so that they would not inform the high-ups about his absence. Singh said that this was routine practice in the Traffic Department. Singh also said that the next day when he reached his post, one of the wardens, Mubasher, misbehaved with him and forcibly took off his turban.

Singh complained to Inspector Shahid Nadeem, who, according to Singh, did not bother. Singh also alleged that the traffic wardens who were present there, made fun of him. This was the point where Singh tendered his resignation immediately and he said that no one called him from the department in order to make an enquiry.

On the other hand, Singhs colleagues maintained that he had been threatening to resign ever since he was recruited. They also claimed that now when Singh acknowledged that all his colleagues, including his seniors, had begun to understand him and had stopped pressurising him, he resigned. (ANI)

Only Sikh traffic warden in Lahore police resigns over turban abuse

 

[garibnawaz]

its the gurdwaras you attack with the army.

Operation Blue Star was one of the dark chapters of our Post Independence history.

It has to be done as loads of tererrists were hiding in it and used a holy temple as their fortress.

This is very similar something to Lal-Masjid operation where Pak army had to raid a mosque.

The temple was not demolished but was damaged which was later restored by Government of India itself.

GB

 

[garibnawaz]

The largest Sikh population in Pakistan is found in Peshawar, in the Northwest Frontier Province. Sikhs are also found in sizable communities in Waziristan and Swat of the Northwest Frontier Province. (unfortuantly the recent terrorism in these areas have not only affected our Muslim Pakistanis but also our Sikh Pakistanis)

First and only sikh soldier of Pakistan Army.

This picture has been put to support what?

We have more number of Sikh PVC recipients in Indian Army than the total number of sikh soldiers in Pakistan Army.

IAF has number of PVC recipent which equals to total number of sikhs in PAK Army.

What is the above picture suggesting in this thread?

GB

 

[Tango25]

The temple was not demolished but was damaged which was later restored by Government of India itself.

GB

Anyone who has visited Harmandir Sahib (also known as Golden Temple) will see that each and every Army Regiment stationed in Punjab has donated funds for the upkeep of the gurudwara.
The walls of Harmandir Sahib records the names of donors, and when you walk around the colonnade you will find the names of many Indian units etched on the walls, who have come to seek blessings and make donations.

The temple is not only a symbol of Sikhism, but a simply of unity of India because all visitors, irrespective of religion, are free to seek the blessings of Guru Granth Sahib.

 

[Spring Onion]

Only Sikh traffic warden in Lahore police resigns over turban abuse

Lahore, Apr 23 (ANI): Gulab Singh, the only Sikh warden in traffic police in Lahore, reportedly resigned last weekend after one his colleagues misbehaved with him and even tossed up his turban. After submitting his resignation, he said that it was a routine affair that his colleagues misbehaved with him and made fun of him being a Sikh.

He said that he was being discriminated against for not being a Muslim due to which his colleagues made fun of his religion. Singh often took his complaints to his seniors, but they did not take the matter seriously, because of which he was forced to resign.

Singh claimed that the trouble began four days prior to his resignation, when he was deputed, along with wardens Asif and Faisal, to manage traffic. He said that Faisal had suddenly left his post at about 3pm. Later, a senior asked about him and also broadcasted a wireless message, inquiring about Faisals whereabouts. At about 7 pm, Faisal returned and misbehaved with Singh for having informed the senior about his absence, the Daily Times quoted him as saying.

Only Sikh traffic warden in Lahore police resigns over turban abuse

typical INDIAN lies of typical INDIAN media.

read the Indian lie again it had nothing to do with his turban the issue was complain about his fellow which led to some harsh feelings. But again even this concoted story by Indian media is BS and a lie.


Now check the news from BBC (which indeed is authentic as compared to Indian media)

BBCUrdu.com

Here is the translation

BBC story about Dr. Gulab Singh Shaheen who has been inducted into the Pakistan Punjab traffic police and has become a celebrity on the roads of Lahore where he is quite literally stopping the traffic as Lahoris stop to embrace and greet him.



“Since yesterday, I have been hearing different greetings, such as sat sari kaal, jo bolay so nihal and ballay ballay from car and bus drivers, motorcyclists and children. Lahoris are really very loving people and these are unforgettable moments for me,” remarked Dr Gulab Singh, the first-ever Sikh to be appointed traffic police warden in Pakistan, in an exclusive interview with Daily Times.

Gulab, the 25-year-old Sikh traffic warden, who hails from Nankana Sahib and now lives in Defence Housing Authority, said that joining the force as a sub-inspector was a dream come true for him. Pledging to do his duty wholeheartedly, he said that the loving welcome he had received from the public had added to his joy. He said he had joined his duty station on Wednesday, and by the second day, dozens of children had forced their parents to stop the car so that they could meet him. Singh is deputed on Alif Laam Meem Chowk on Aziz Bhatti Road in Cantt.


Gulab said he was born in Nankana district in January 1982. His father, Manna Singh, is a farmer and a father of seven - five boys and two girls. Gulab is the youngest of the siblings. Gulab completed his matriculation in Nankana district, graudation in Lahore and then received a doctorate in homeopathy from Bahawalpur. Gulab said he also operated a homeopathic clinic, which he might have to shut down because of his new and demanding posting.

Gulab said he applied for the sub-inspector post when announcements inviting applications appeared in newspapers, but did not tell his family. He informed them only after he was appointed, which translated into a delightful surprise for them, he added. Commenting on his training process, Gulab said, “The attitude of my fellow trainees and officers was very good towards me. Nobody ever forced me to do anything against my religious beliefs.” He said he had no problems wearing his kara (bangle), or keeping his kirpan (dagger) on him. He added that, as he was a vegetarian, green meals were arranged for him in the mess during the training period. “I am very grateful to my officers for this gesture,” Gulab said.


Gulab is multilingual and has command over Urdu, Punjabi, Pashto, Seraiki, and Sindhi. He added, “I can also speak English, but not very fluently.” Gulab also said that he was fond of Punjabi bhangra music and that his favourite singers are Abrar-ul-Haq, Harbajhan Maan and Waris Baig. In terms of the future, Gulab said, “I will do my duty honestly, work like a true and dutiful citizen, and dream of a corruption-free atmosphere.”

 

[garibnawaz]

typical INDIAN lies of typical INDIAN media.

Your link dates back to 25th April 2007, when the lad joined the Lahore Police.

My link is of April-2008 when he quit. Yours is one year earlier when he was living happily.

typical INDIAN lies of typical INDIAN media.

Quote from Daily Times Pakistan.

Gulab Singh: Gulab Singh, the only Sikh traffic warden in Punjab, submitted his resignation to the authorities after his fellow warden allegedly knocked off his turban the other day.

Dr Pritpal said the respondent in Gulab’s case should be punished according to local laws. “Pakistan has only one Sikh employee in its law-enforcement agencies. He should be honoured not discriminated,” he added.

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

typical INDIAN lies of typical INDIAN media.

Ghulab Singh Blues’ : Sikh traffic warden submits resignation, alleges discrimination

Staff Report

LAHORE: Ghulab Singh, the only Sikh traffic warden in the provincial metropolis, finally submitted his resignation on the weekend on account of which the higher authorities held an enquiry. The high-ups issued a show cause notice to traffic warden Mubasher, who allegedly knocked off Singh’s turban (Pagri), and ordered him to submit an answer within a couple of days. Senior traffic warden (STW) Shahid Nadeem also submitted a special report against Ghulab Singh on Tuesday, police sources said.

Traffic police officials, including Singh’s colleagues, said that Singh basically had an attitude problem due to which he had created a history for himself of scuffles at every deployment across the city. They added that when Singh was deputed at Post Master General (PMG) Chowk, he had a scuffle with road commuters, who were later identified as son and nephew of another policeman. According to the officials, Singh made an issue of it and a senior held an enquiry in this regard. Later, when Singh was deputed at Kahna, he fought with several other transporters and had similar scuffles at Anarkali, Mozang, Choburji and Qartaba Chowk.

On March 23, 2008, STW Ghulam Haider asked Ghulab Singh about a road accident, after which Singh misbehaved with him. The STW submitted a special report against him to the high-ups. Traffic sources also mentioned that once at Qartaba Chowk, Singh stopped a rickshaw heading towards a hospital with a patient. Singh held the rickshaw driver and passenger for more than an hour and later issued a ticket.

Discrimination: Ghulab Singh, while talking to Daily Times, denied all allegations against him and narrated his entire story on Tuesday. Singh said that he was being discriminated against for not being a Muslim due to which his colleagues made fun of his religion. Singh complained to his seniors, but claimed that they did not take the matter seriously, because of which he felt compelled to resign.

Singh claimed that the trouble began four days prior to his resignation, when he was deputed, along with wardens Asif and Faisal, to manage traffic. He said that Faisal had suddenly left his post at about 3pm. Later, a senior asked about him and also broadcasted a wireless message, inquiring about Faisal’s whereabouts. At about 7pm, Faisal returned and misbehaved with Singh for having informed the senior about his absence. Singh added that Faisal left yet again at 7:30pm and bribed the officials at wireless control with dinner so that they would not inform the high-ups about his absence. Singh said that this was routine practice in the Traffic Department. Singh also said that the next day when he reached his post, one of the wardens, Mubasher, misbehaved with him and forcibly took off his (Singh’s) ‘turban’ (Pagri). Singh complained to Inspector Shahid Nadeem, who, according to Singh, did not bother. Singh also alleged that the traffic wardens who were present there, made fun of him. This was the point where Singh tendered his resignation immediately and he said that no one called him from the department in order to make an enquiry.

Singh’s colleagues commented that he had been threatening to resign ever since he was recruited. They also claimed that now when Singh acknowledged that all his colleagues, including his seniors, had begun to understand him and had stopped pressurising him, he resigned. Deputy Superintendent of Police (DSP) Ichra Shehzad Khan said, “The matter will be resolved within the next two days as senior officers are personally looking into the matter.”

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2008\04\23\story_23-4-2008_pg13_7

Now as everyone can see even Pakistani newspapers are reporting the same. Hence JANA's useless taunts on the Indian media have no meaning.

Not to forget she claims to be a reporter herself.

GB

 

[Tango25]

I fail to see the point of this thread. Gabbar, could you leave some comment to give us some direction as to what exactly are we supposed to be discussing here?

Clearly, Indians will try to dispute the topic, while Pakistanis will try to prove it. Why are you then insisting that all this is off-topic?