Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?

[mano99]

sonia is the tenth richest politician in the world according to a USA newspaper. she wants to become the first.

 

[帅的一匹]

France won't TOT radar and engine to India, that's for sure.

 

[neehar]

Explain to me how Apple will give an Indian company its sensitive tech.

or microsoft

or cisco

or ibm

Tell me

Please.


Oh and these companies are selling mostly civilian equipment which is relatively less secretive than the military stuff we are talking about in this thread.

may be not all the technology is transferred but lets wait and see the out come of the negotiations up to what extent they are ready to transfer the technology.but TOT aside..joint development of this world class aircraft will definitely hone the skills of our production companies.and it would be definitely helpful in the manufacturing of future aircrafts.there are rumors that indian companies like reliance are going to involve in the project.so even if technology is not directly transfered to the indian psu s.its fine if it develops the private sector in defence.

 

[Superboy]

For governments, funding is typically not a problem. Governments can always borrow from the World Bank for purchases. Pakistan recently borrowed nearly a billion USD from the Asia Development Bank to build a new coal power plant.

In recent years, the US economy has moved towards a debt based economy, with current debt level surpassing 17.3 trillion USD and increasing faster than ever.

 

[sincity]

France won't teach India to completely build a fully fighter jet with a complete TOT in state of the art fighter jet engine, radar. These 2 keys component make the powerful fighter jet with up to date advance fighter jet in the world. France don't want to lose future fighter jet sale to the India military industry.

 

[MilSpec]

Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?

​

Yep, you read that right. India is close to signing a $20-25 billion deal to acquire 126 new fighter jets. That's around Rs 900-1000 crore apiece for a 4th generation jet, when the world is moving on to 5th generation stealth jets and unmanned drones. So how did we get here?

A modern multirole fighter jet is expected to perform two primary functions: air-to-air combat, and air-to-ground strike. The former consists of attacking enemy aircraft and defending your own airspace. The latter consists of attacking enemy air defenses, and supporting your own ground forces in battle. The Indian Air Force (IAF) has generally been good at air-to-air, but the experience at Kargil revealed some serious shortcomings in its air-to-ground effort. Only the Mirage 2000, a French multirole aircraft, was able to perform well after some urgent modifications were carried out with Israeli help.

It thus seemed like a good idea to purchase more Mirage aircraft expeditiously and upgrade the ones already in service. That was in 1999. Today, in 2014, the Mirage is out of production, and after a competitive but sluggish shortlisting process, India is on the verge of signing a deal to acquire its successor, the Dassault Rafale. Along with the Eurofighter Typhoon, it was judged to be the most capable of the six contenders in the tender, and happened to be the cheaper of the two finalists (which happened to be the two most expensive aircraft in the competition).

However, in the meantime, both the IAF, and the threats it faces, have evolved. India's spearhead today is the excellent Sukhoi Su-30MKI - which can fly faster, farther, carry a larger payload (of weapons and fuel), and has a more powerful radar than the Rafale (though both are expected to upgrade to newer AESA units in due course). And very recently, India's own Light Combat Aircraft, the Tejas, has displayed acceptable performance. Between them, the Su-30 and Tejas could cover many of the missions that the Rafale is meant to undertake.

But the real problem is cost. One Rafale costs more than two Sukhois, or more than five Tejas jets. In fact total development costs of the Tejas are just $1.5 billion, or about the same as 9 Rafales! Capability wise, the Rafale is a little worse than the Sukhoi in air-to-air combat and a little better than it in air-to-ground strike roles. In terms of ownership costs, traditionally a problem with Russian products, the Rafale is hardly better. By some estimates, it costs around Rs 10 lac ($16000) per flight hour. The average Indian fighter pilot flies 200-250 hours in a year, which is necessary for training etc. That's Rs 20 crore per Rafale pilot per year, at the very least. To put that in perspective, that's what Kejriwal spent to win Delhi!

And going by previous experience with ToT arrangements, rarely is the outcome consistent with the letter and intent of the agreed deal. At best, India will be able to produce some parts and spares of the Rafale independently (this will likely exclude complex engine and radar assemblies), but we will not learn how to design these from scratch.

It is thus very unfortunate that an urgent and legitimate need for a good strike aircraft, addressed through a competitive and transparent tender process, has resulted in a situation where the IAF will pay 5th gen money for a 4th gen platform, and receive the last of these aircraft at a time when they are about to be obsolescent. Don't get me wrong, the Rafale is a good jet, and it beat the others in the contest fair and square. The real issue is the acquisition timeline that has dragged on for over 13 years. What made sense in 1999 just doesn't make sense in 2014. The technology of war evolves fast. Either the tender should have been modified to include newer contenders, or it should have been framed such that aircraft costs played a more meaningful role in the end result. What we've done is akin to taking our own sweet time (over a decade!) and picking a Mercedes and an Audi from a lineup that includes a Maruti and a Hyundai, and then coyly choosing the cheaper of the two. We'd still be stuck with an expensive, if lovely, car.

For an ambitious and developing India, there's better ways to spend one lakh twenty thousand crore rupees (or $20 billion). High-speed rail, or world-class highways could be one option. Buying out a foreign aerospace company (Dassault's market cap today is $15 billion), or at the very least recruiting the same scientists, engineers and designers that may be laid off if we don't splurge on foreign weapons (from BAE, EADS, Dassault etc), and putting them to work on indigenous projects, could be another.

With India tumbling to sub 5% growth, and with dwindling foreign reserves that translate to an export cover of barely 8 months, a fancy new jet is hardly the need of the hour.

Source:- Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet? by Yankee Doodle : Sohel Sanghani's blog-The Times Of India

Yeh kaunse gaddhe aise articles likhte hain!

 

[BATMAN]

Jab jang hogi to isko border pe bhej dena... yeh likh likh ke dushman ko apni kalam se marega.

I agree, Rafale is paramount to Indian defense.
Those Russian SU's are not made for Indo-Pak war theater, while mig-21 are not airworthy.
Only, a/c which India can currently use against Pakistan is its mirrage2K.

Yeh kaunse gaddhe aise articles likhte hain!

Did you quoted the OP just for your useless comment?
Which gaddha made you TT?

Regarding the price and choice, Eurofighter is even more expensive and IAF doctrine has been changed ot engine a/c from long time.
There is little hint that they will go back to single engine a/c.

 

[MilSpec]

Yaar. Think about this. (I am using simple example)

If you are Apple CEO

And someone from India comes to you and says.

Hey Apple CEO,

I want to buy million IPhone 4s (one step older model)

if you allow me to copy IPhone's sensitive tech.

then

What do you think that you the Apple CEO will tell the Indian buyer?

A) Yes Indian buyer. Here. Take our sensitive tech
B) Foged-a-bout it (like the mafia guy would say)


Is it A

Is B

Or ?

Understanding of ToT for HAL - my 2 cents!

INFORMAL DISCUSSION WITH IAF PERSONNEL ABOUT LCA AND AMCA | Page 4

I agree, Rafale is paramount to Indian defense.
Those Russian SU's are not made for Indo-Pak war theater, while mig-21 are not airworthy.
Only, a/c which India can currently use against Pakistan is its mirrage2K.


Did you quoted the OP just for your useless comment?
Which gaddha made you TT?

Regarding the price and choice, Eurofighter is even more expensive and IAF doctrine has been changed ot engine a/c from long time.
There is little hint that they will go back to single engine a/c.

Ok genius, lets here what hint have you deciphered?

SU30 are not meant for Indo Pak.... wow... please tell us more...

 

[sincity]

India want to learn how to build new generation fighter jet to later compete with France for fighter jet sale. No sane businessmen will jeopardize their future transaction and destroy their industry just to make couple billions dollar profit. In a long run couple billions dollars profit can larger financial lost with a transaction.

 

[li0nheart]

Yaar. Think about this. (I am using simple example)

If you are Apple CEO

And someone from India comes to you and says.

Hey Apple CEO,

I want to buy million IPhone 4s (one step older model)

if you allow me to copy IPhone's sensitive tech.

then

What do you think that you the Apple CEO will tell the Indian buyer?

A) Yes Indian buyer. Here. Take our sensitive tech
B) Foged-a-bout it (like the mafia guy would say)


Is it A

Is B

Or ?

Replace Apple with BlackBerry. Then you will be more accurate with your example...

 

[Superboy]

.No Rafale is superior than any chinese plane except j20 and j30.....
And for j20 and j30 we will have pakfas.....
Besides that we have geographical advantage....
although i agree that rafale is not a good deal.....

I beg to differ. J-10B is more of a match for Rafale. J-10B has the latest technologies such as DSI, AESA, MAWS.

 

[JOEY TRIBIANI]

Tu Tension na le tere liye mig-29 hi kaffi hai. This is for our northern neighbour.

han kargil may iaf k migs nay kamal dikhaya tha anza missile ka nishana ban k .... rofl

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

And same can be said about Pakistan. Why Pakistan is buying JF17s where there is f16s are there? I guess jf17s are not for acrobat

Jf 17 is 3rd gen fighter, f16 is 60s tech .we are not buying more fighter. I think may b we only complete 150 jf 17 till 2020. Look our tiny defence budget w.r.t to population & land.

 

[Superboy]

And same can be said about Pakistan. Why Pakistan is buying JF17s where there is f16s are there? I guess jf17s are not for acrobatics?

JF-17 is a single small engine fighter. F-16 is a single big engine fighter. They are not in the same size class. JF-17 replaces F-7 and Mirage and A-5. J-10B replaces F-16.

 

[Mitro]

Everybody just interested in grabbing indian money they dont want help develop indian capacity to make their own.

Barak 2 till now no tot for drdo just bs
Russian never tot just kits to assemble
Now french scorpion tot but MDL take years to show result
In mmrca if french agree to give indian tot also then it take a decades to see the result .
Because in drdo or Hal people are not selected on merit but recommanded.