Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?

[sancho]

Most of the MKI are not directed against Pakistan but will be against china.. Same goes to Rafale..

IAF places all fighters around India, therefor there will be Rafales placed towards Pakistan as well and that will be enough for people to claim MMRCA is aimed to Pakistan, that wants to see it that way and there is no point in arguing against limited views. The primary aim however as you said will be the north eastern / eastern borders and defence against China.

When China bought Su-27, they opened it up and now they have an entire line of planes

An entire line of planes that looks like the Su 27, but still have not the technical capability that they Russians developed for them. Be it advanced radars, engine or TVC, they still wasn't able to develop the same capabilities and that although they spend big times to get the same.
So what China achived and where they are really good at, is an advanced production capability. They can re-produce nearly every design of Russian or western aircrafts (even stealth designs), just that it doesn't mean that they are as capable.
We, as simple as it is, don't have this industrial capability, but benefit far more from working with other countries. We can produce Flanker airframe or engine parts as well, we even sell them to other Su 30 operators. We now also can modify Russian techs with Indian parts and have all the freedom to add Indian or western avionics or even weapons soon and the next step of this cooperation is the FGFA co-development. Again we get access to techs, increased modifications with Indian parts and even more freedom for customization + co-ownership!
The ammount of cooperations the competition got Indian government owned and privat industry, is far more valuable that the money spend for the fighters itself and with the increased offsets and ToT requirements, we even will gain more than we ever had in Jaguar, or even MKI licence productions and the more deals we do, the more our industry will benefit.

Samtel joining with Thales and producing FSO, or HMS
BEL jointing with Thales for Damocles pod, or AESA radar
Dassault joining with Reliance
Tata teamed up with Boeing, LM, Saab, Sikorsky, Agosta Westland
L&T with Airbus
...
...
...

Our true strength is the access to foreign partners, but we wasted a lot of years with own developments that went no where. In the recent years however, MoD had turned the policies more into JVs and co-developments and that's what makes our forces and our industry better in the long term. Jointly developing NG aircrafts, techs and weapons, instead of figuring out how the Russians, or western countries developed certain things and trying to re-produce it.

 

[FaujHistorian]

shouldn't you as a pakistani be against india making their forces modern? because these jets are purchased to be used against pakistan.

are you sure your not najam sethi?

Valid point.

However as fauj historian I should give my honest opinion.

I guess you utterly fail to realize that Pakistanis can run from pillar to post and still cannot stop India from buying more stuff. This is a fact.

Instead of doing gali galoch against India, we should focus on modernizing our own army.

How do we do that?

The day Pakistanis as a nation started focusing on bring home dollars/euors by copying Chinese, South Koreans, and Indians etc. will be the day we too can buy expensive stuff for our army.

So update your views and focus on things that truly can help Pakistanis.

Throwing Mullahtic accusations at fellow Pakistanis will not help.

Thank you and happy new year.

 

[Kyle Sun]

160 million dollars per piece....................

India is really rich!

India is really Lucky!

French never sell China Jet with full TOT even 300 million per piece!!

 

[faithfulguy]

please explain why shouldnt we spending this much money for development of AMCA?

Because not all solution can be solved by throwing money at it.

Scrap this deal if it is without key technologies. We want full TOT be it avionics, radar, engine,war grade plastic etc.

India can get full TOT on assembly the components. But not technology for materials. So the plastic would be out. The software for avionics would be out.

France won't TOT radar and engine to India, that's for sure.

French will transfer engine technology. Just not the crystal blade technology to India. India can buy all the blades from France and assemble the whole engine in India.

 

[FaujHistorian]

Replace Apple with BlackBerry. Then you will be more accurate with your example...

I seriously doubt that the 1000 corore planes being discussed in this thread are the blackberries of the defense world.

But you may know better than me.

Who knows.

 

[帅的一匹]

TOT will exclude engine and radar. Considering J10B is only 45 million USD per peice, Rafale is too expensive to be produced in large quantity. Rafale is a big threat to Pakistan. To China, the threat could be ignored unless they could make it 500 plus.

 

[liall]

han kargil may iaf k migs nay kamal dikhaya tha anza missile ka nishana ban k .... rofl

You guys lost Kargil war. Any thing else you want to say?

 

[PurpleButcher]

If i were the decision maker, i would spend this money on building 10 new IITs which in a few years would produce professionals which would either earn foreign exchange or set up their own companies in India...and after 15-20 years india's economy would start reaping benefits from MY decision.... for the love of god spend on human development...

PS> as far as defence is concerned.... nothing gonna happen just few skrimishes here and there..no one goes to full scale war with a nuclear power..india not gonna attack pakistan not vice versa...and same goes for china and india equation..... at max india can make bla...we can make mujahideen...china can make a few tents...and none of these things require RAFALE...

 

[帅的一匹]

IAF places all fighters around India, therefor there will be Rafales placed towards Pakistan as well and that will be enough for people to claim MMRCA is aimed to Pakistan, that wants to see it that way and there is no point in arguing against limited views. The primary aim however as you said will be the north eastern / eastern borders and defence against China.



An entire line of planes that looks like the Su 27, but still have not the technical capability that they Russians developed for them. Be it advanced radars, engine or TVC, they still wasn't able to develop the same capabilities and that although they spend big times to get the same.
So what China achived and where they are really good at, is an advanced production capability. They can re-produce nearly every design of Russian or western aircrafts (even stealth designs), just that it doesn't mean that they are as capable.
We, as simple as it is, don't have this industrial capability, but benefit far more from working with other countries. We can produce Flanker airframe or engine parts as well, we even sell them to other Su 30 operators. We now also can modify Russian techs with Indian parts and have all the freedom to add Indian or western avionics or even weapons soon and the next step of this cooperation is the FGFA co-development. Again we get access to techs, increased modifications with Indian parts and even more freedom for customization + co-ownership!
The ammount of cooperations the competition got Indian government owned and privat industry, is far more valuable that the money spend for the fighters itself and with the increased offsets and ToT requirements, we even will gain more than we ever had in Jaguar, or even MKI licence productions and the more deals we do, the more our industry will benefit.

Samtel joining with Thales and producing FSO, or HMS
BEL jointing with Thales for Damocles pod, or AESA radar
Dassault joining with Reliance
Tata teamed up with Boeing, LM, Saab, Sikorsky, Agosta Westland
L&T with Airbus
...
...
...

Our true strength is the access to foreign partners, but we wasted a lot of years with own developments that went no where. In the recent years however, MoD had turned the policies more into JVs and co-developments and that's what makes our forces and our industry better in the long term. Jointly developing NG aircrafts, techs and weapons, instead of figuring out how the Russians, or western countries developed certain things and trying to re-produce it.

The problem is you get used to stick and you can't walk on your own.France will not transfer you the material know-how as how to make the critical part of an fighter engine. The only purpose of buying Rafale is to bully Pakistan and make you feel safe against China. The truth is, neither India has the technology advantage and quantity advantage when face China. China is very constrained in providing Pakistan advanced wepaons, otherwise India will froce herself to pony up the bill she can't afford. The main concern of why India is lagging behind is because you always counts others to extend help instead of working on your own. No KPI, no personal evaluation, chaos organization structure is the reason why DRDO always fails. China threat is far away, while your wrong logic has deviated your way from success.

Too much money wasted which is supposed to help those poors, and China will be blamed for the nonsense threat BS accusation.

 

[帅的一匹]

Time for Pakistan to get j10b.

 

[Zarvan]

Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet?

​

Yep, you read that right. India is close to signing a $20-25 billion deal to acquire 126 new fighter jets. That's around Rs 900-1000 crore apiece for a 4th generation jet, when the world is moving on to 5th generation stealth jets and unmanned drones. So how did we get here?

A modern multirole fighter jet is expected to perform two primary functions: air-to-air combat, and air-to-ground strike. The former consists of attacking enemy aircraft and defending your own airspace. The latter consists of attacking enemy air defenses, and supporting your own ground forces in battle. The Indian Air Force (IAF) has generally been good at air-to-air, but the experience at Kargil revealed some serious shortcomings in its air-to-ground effort. Only the Mirage 2000, a French multirole aircraft, was able to perform well after some urgent modifications were carried out with Israeli help.

It thus seemed like a good idea to purchase more Mirage aircraft expeditiously and upgrade the ones already in service. That was in 1999. Today, in 2014, the Mirage is out of production, and after a competitive but sluggish shortlisting process, India is on the verge of signing a deal to acquire its successor, the Dassault Rafale. Along with the Eurofighter Typhoon, it was judged to be the most capable of the six contenders in the tender, and happened to be the cheaper of the two finalists (which happened to be the two most expensive aircraft in the competition).

However, in the meantime, both the IAF, and the threats it faces, have evolved. India's spearhead today is the excellent Sukhoi Su-30MKI - which can fly faster, farther, carry a larger payload (of weapons and fuel), and has a more powerful radar than the Rafale (though both are expected to upgrade to newer AESA units in due course). And very recently, India's own Light Combat Aircraft, the Tejas, has displayed acceptable performance. Between them, the Su-30 and Tejas could cover many of the missions that the Rafale is meant to undertake.

But the real problem is cost. One Rafale costs more than two Sukhois, or more than five Tejas jets. In fact total development costs of the Tejas are just $1.5 billion, or about the same as 9 Rafales! Capability wise, the Rafale is a little worse than the Sukhoi in air-to-air combat and a little better than it in air-to-ground strike roles. In terms of ownership costs, traditionally a problem with Russian products, the Rafale is hardly better. By some estimates, it costs around Rs 10 lac ($16000) per flight hour. The average Indian fighter pilot flies 200-250 hours in a year, which is necessary for training etc. That's Rs 20 crore per Rafale pilot per year, at the very least. To put that in perspective, that's what Kejriwal spent to win Delhi!

And going by previous experience with ToT arrangements, rarely is the outcome consistent with the letter and intent of the agreed deal. At best, India will be able to produce some parts and spares of the Rafale independently (this will likely exclude complex engine and radar assemblies), but we will not learn how to design these from scratch.

It is thus very unfortunate that an urgent and legitimate need for a good strike aircraft, addressed through a competitive and transparent tender process, has resulted in a situation where the IAF will pay 5th gen money for a 4th gen platform, and receive the last of these aircraft at a time when they are about to be obsolescent. Don't get me wrong, the Rafale is a good jet, and it beat the others in the contest fair and square. The real issue is the acquisition timeline that has dragged on for over 13 years. What made sense in 1999 just doesn't make sense in 2014. The technology of war evolves fast. Either the tender should have been modified to include newer contenders, or it should have been framed such that aircraft costs played a more meaningful role in the end result. What we've done is akin to taking our own sweet time (over a decade!) and picking a Mercedes and an Audi from a lineup that includes a Maruti and a Hyundai, and then coyly choosing the cheaper of the two. We'd still be stuck with an expensive, if lovely, car.

For an ambitious and developing India, there's better ways to spend one lakh twenty thousand crore rupees (or $20 billion). High-speed rail, or world-class highways could be one option. Buying out a foreign aerospace company (Dassault's market cap today is $15 billion), or at the very least recruiting the same scientists, engineers and designers that may be laid off if we don't splurge on foreign weapons (from BAE, EADS, Dassault etc), and putting them to work on indigenous projects, could be another.

With India tumbling to sub 5% growth, and with dwindling foreign reserves that translate to an export cover of barely 8 months, a fancy new jet is hardly the need of the hour.

Source:- Should India spend Rs 1000cr on a single fighter jet? by Yankee Doodle : Sohel Sanghani's blog-The Times Of India

I wouldn't mind if the plane would have been euro fighter but Rafale they need to think again

Time for Pakistan to get j10b.

We will get them soon inshallah

 

[jarves]

If i were the decision maker, i would spend this money on building 10 new IITs which in a few years would produce professionals which would either earn foreign exchange or set up their own companies in India...and after 15-20 years india's economy would start reaping benefits from MY decision.... for the love of god spend on human development...

PS> as far as defence is concerned.... nothing gonna happen just few skrimishes here and there..no one goes to full scale war with a nuclear power..india not gonna attack pakistan not vice versa...and same goes for china and india equation..... at max india can make bla...we can make mujahideen...china can make a few tents...and none of these things require RAFALE...

lol,dude we are already buiding IITS,AIIMS,Management schools in each state.....

If nothing is gonna happen then why are you spending so much money on defence eqiupments..........

 

[帅的一匹]

The test of WS10A on J10B had begun since year 2009, i think J10B will ready for PAF no later than year 2015.

As long as Rafale deal signed, China will not hesitate selling PAf J10B. I strongly believe some PAF pilotes are undergoing training in China as how to operate J10 now. J31 is too far away, J10b is a good stop gap. Soft loan will be provided to make the payment easier, goods to goods trade will be considered as well.

 

[帅的一匹]

PAF could lease some J10A from PLAAF to counter Rafale.

 

[FaujHistorian]

India can get full TOT on assembly the components. But not technology for materials.
.

hahahahhaah

full TOT on assembly of components

hahahahahaah


Well said.

very well


OK so you buy kits from country X
They tell you how to put the kit together

you say

aha aha aha

I got the TOT on assembling the kit

you dance and prance

Got tot
totooooooooo
toooooooooo]
totooooooooo


Do you my bro

realize that you just made up your own forking definition for TOT

Do you

Do you

French will transfer engine technology. Just not the crystal blade technology to India. India can buy all the blades from France and assemble the whole engine in India.

Oh come on bud

Who are you kidding.

who the heck are you kidding.

ToT of engine tech.

not in million year.



Please understand the concept of TOT first.

you are making a mockery of the very definition of TOT

Please

do not do that

do not treat us as if we are all sitting in a 5th grade class.

Thank you.

I respect you

and I expect you

respect all of us enough to not do this mumbo jumbo.

Thank you.

I

We will get them [J-10] soon inshallah

As if we the Paks have money to pay for them.

Your "inshaAllah" is like a begger saying InshaAllah I'll get money and food.

InshAllah.

Pathetic.

really really pathetic begger mentality

Kaam na kaaj

Dushman Anaah

Lainayh chalay J-10

Yeh shakal or J-10

hahahahahahaha



you know Zarwan

you have turned Inshaallha onto its head and thrown this beautiful prayer into an Islamist gutter


Fyi

InshAllah was meant for the hard working people

Who worked their asses off

then earned decent money (dolllars and euros)

then came home

and said

inshaAllah our family or nation will survive



Hard work -> Dollar/euro earning -->inshaAllah

You and other Islamists in Pakistan skip the first two IMPORTANT steps and jump into head first InShaAllah

like begger begging for scrap of bread saying InshAlla

paethic

reallsy pathetic.