INFORMAL DISCUSSION WITH IAF PERSONNEL ABOUT LCA AND AMCA

[Anony]

How can a plane become a mature without ever being deployed in service?

The plane has become mature for opertional service, this is what he meant. Don't go on the words but try understand the essence of it and I am not quoting his speech word to word.

hmmmm this should put to rest the hype created by Indians about "latest star war technologies" used in Tejas, and this I think is the key reason for Tejas not being inducted in the service, and the chances are it never will be. In my opinion it would become a sort of test bed for indian aviation tech research and maybe some limited training, and not to forget fly past on republic day parades.

No one has ever claimed any type of star war technologies on Tejas. And who told you it will never get inducted. In the discussion it is very clearly mentioned that why IAF didn't inducted Tejas till now. He clearly mention IAF keep changing his requirement so that when Tejas get ready for inducting, it still remains a good & competent fighter matching the present gen fighters. Thats why you herad about, higher payload of close to 4 ton on LCA mk1 and 5 ton on mk2 when the initial requirement was of 2.5 ton payload. Similarly hybrid MMR radar and AESA radar. Higher powered engine, AoA, HMS, HOTAS, lock on by looking,low RCS, higher use of composites ,etc.

 

[dbc]

As far as production of LCA is concerned, i dont see any key technology being brought in by dassault that if required HAL couldn't have sourced from 3M, or Boeing for that matter!!! (I am assuming we are not discussing avionics)

There is no doubting HAL's ability to produce LCA at a low rate but do they have the ability to produce 200 defect free LCAs in four years at the rate of 1 aircraft a week? At one point India was looking to outsource LCA production.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/99763-drdo-looks-beyond-hal-tejas-production.html

 

[MilSpec]

There is no doubting HAL's ability to produce LCA at a low rate but do they have the ability to produce 200 defect free LCAs in four years at the rate of 1 aircraft a week? At one point India was looking to outsource LCA production.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/99763-drdo-looks-beyond-hal-tejas-production.html

Interesting question.

lets get this straight, HAL is a manufacturing giant, it boasts of product lines that very few companies around the world can, hence I wont cast any aspersions on the manufacturing capability of HAL. When you are referring to the quantity the EoQ number comes into play here, HAL is not a defence lab which has unending supply of research money, it is a PSU company and has to remain profitable, our government is not very liberal about bailing out companies. If the design agency can come up with a finalized design that the airforce would want in large numbers appropriate production lines will be setup to support the deliver, and yes defect free deliveries.

And as far as 1 aircraft /week is concerned, I dont think that is a very realistic number given the demand, the system is not like the f16 where the production wasdivided in gd, lm sasumg fokker etc, the production is serial in nature due to order quantity. The amount of time that it takes for manufacturing, assemble and testing almost takes about a month and a half for MKI, so I am assuming for an aircraft like LCA at full production rate at a facility equivalent to Nasik division, it should take around three weeks to month.

From order service to delivery the schedule should be around, 44 days (imo), within a year, that would generate enough data to for MRP improvements and value stream maps to reduce the Takt time for production and testing without loosing any money COPQ. Now if the numbers increase significantly then the room for measure to increase production capability can be explored.

 

[Joe Shearer]

u could have asked him regarding mmrca negotiations..

A pilot in the front line? These negotiations are confined to and conducted by a handful of top officials. Most of them civilians, with military assistance on technical issues.

 

[Joe Shearer]

So LCA MK1 is a jet for training purpose, you forget to ask the condition of MK2. What about the updation to super MkI?

Where did you get that? The man said, clearly, that all inducted planes are initially used for training and development of doctrine regarding their use, tactics and specific roles. All. Once pilots and their commanding officers understand how best to use the new aircraft, they are brought into front line deployment.

The need to get behind the enemy in the execution of a point/area defense mission became redundant with the advent of all aspect missiles. Two types of enemy attack on fixed installation can be expected the first is penetration attack and the second is massed attack that was common in world war II. Penetration attacks are harder to counter since the attacking aircraft will typically fly low using terrain masking and each enemy strike aircraft will use independent ingress routes to the target arriving simultaneously at the target to overwhelm the defender.

The LCA is quite effective in the above described role has been for several years now. I believe the LCA is superior to the MiG-21 as a point defense fighter and interceptor. As to why the LCA has not replaced the MiG-21 yet, I believe the issue is India's inability to mass produce the LCA. The techniques used to produce a handful of prototypes does not scale to economical mass production. India is counting on MMRCA to receive the tooling and techniques to make this happen.

By and large accurate, but a major disability is being underpowered. While new engines have been identified, they have not been successfully integrated with the airframe yet. There are CoG issues, and weight gain issues.

 

[Speeder 2]

I did not commented on it being a mature platform. I am just wondering what are Chinese standards, that you can make the claim that a plane with so much flight hours is still on drawing board. You just tried to put words in my mouth, to justify your hyperbole, and dodged my question altogether.

put words in my mouth? hyperbole?

that dude claimed "quite a mature platform" isn't it?

i dunno what plaaf call it, but to tell the world that lca is "quite a mature platform" in any sense is laughable to the least.

 

[Speeder 2]

self-delete

 

[Speeder 2]

lets get this straight, HAL is a manufacturing giant, it boasts of product lines that very few companies around the world can, hence I wont cast any aspersions on the manufacturing capability of HAL. ...

are you all right? seriously?

as long as chest-thumping goes, the sky is the limit for indians it seems. it cannot get any better than things like above.

stop bragging HAL will ya? HAL is a laughing stock of the world, not because it is not "big" but because it's WAY out of its depth. whatever it is, it is a manufacturing midget indeed.

"giant" is not an issue that can only be measured by # of employees which has nothing to do per se with the quality here.

using the same wordings you can replace HAL with Indian National Railway Company and keep bragging about how big it is...how many emplyees it has,etc. but just like HAL, it doesn't insinuate a bit about its quality. in fact most sane people know that HAL and Indian Railway Company alike are one of the most inefficient, technologically backward and corrupt entities around one can come across.


"HAL is a manufacturing giant, it boasts of product lines that very few companies around the world can, .." this examplified how deluded beyond absurdity most indians in this forum are.

... If you leave out the shortcomings due to underpowered engine on LCA, tell me one other point where LCA is behind J-10A.
...

is this the joke of month or year?

this is like asking, leave aside the shortcomings of being cyber, tell me one other point where the bike i draw using my computer is behind the bikes sold in the bikestore around the corner that have been running in streets for a decade?

answer: the diff is like day and night, everything and anything, mostly.

 

[Anony]

is this the joke of month or year?

this is like asking, leave aside the shortcomings of being cyber, tell me one other point where the bike i draw using my computer is behinf the bike sold in the bikestore around the corner?

I told other than engine because LCA will be fitted with GE f414-ins6 engine. The thrust of this engine is 98kn as opposed 85kn of the engine currently fitted in LCA. This will help LCA surpass the thrust to weight ratio of J-10.So you can see there is nothing wrong with LCA only we need to replace it's engine. And since it is clear that LCA mk1 initially for the next few years will perform as a training platform for the IAF pilots, it is good to use the reserve engine GE f-404.

 

[Speeder 2]

I told other than engine because LCA will be fitted with GE f414-ins6 engine. The thrust of this engine is 98kn as opposed 85kn of the engine currently fitted in LCA. This will help LCA surpass the thrust to weight ratio of J-10.So you can see there is nothing wrong with LCA only we need to replace it's engine. And since it is clear that LCA mk1 initially for the next few years will perform as a training platform for the IAF pilots, it is good to use the reserve engine GE f-404.

you still don't get it do you?

when you'll realise that you indians can talk the talk forever, but if you want to come down to the earth to compare reality rule #1 is to make a reality first yourself - that is to say to put lca in series production and service - then you have the the basic qualification to compare it with eihter j-10a, or jf-17, or F-22 or whatever you fancy.

until that happens, whatever you claim lca this or that is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, that different in essence from either what you claimed countless times during the last 3 decades that "lca can this and that", or what i can claim on a plane that i draw using my pencil during teabreaks.

so indians believe that the ONLY big problem regarding lca boils down to the engine eh? then is it reasonable to assume that if it takes > 3 decades, as it does, to finally have realised it has engine problem, then it would probably take the same amount of time, if not more, to do a complete "heart transplant" from now on on this "quite a mature platform" omghaha: excuse me, can't resist the joke) with fingers acrossed in the hope that it could breath with a tube in the nose, at least in the lab, for some more days?

meanwhile, you still have the gall to compare it to jf-17 or j-10a on mass proiduction and in service...

 

[IND151]

Few days ago I had a chat with my brother-in-law who is in the navigation & control department of Sukhoi in IAF. I am listing the questions I asked him and his reply on those.

Is LCA really good aircraft? Can it match the capability of other fighters of IAF?

It's a good craft but it still need to develop itself to match the frontline fighters of IAF.

Where exactly it lacks?

It's not where , but total combat capability. And you can't compare LCA and Sukhoi, they will be performing completely different role. Now what I mean is, the swiftness with which Sukhoi can perform it's role, LCA is still some distance away to gain the ability to perform it's role accordingly.

Why not? What are the major shortcomings of LCA? Is it radar not good enough?

Laughs and said. Not shortcomings but swiftness. It still lags behind the combat standard of IAF.

Mention atleast 2-3 points.It will help me to have a clear understanding.

Ok I tell you one. In real time combat, point defence fighter are generally flown behind the strike fighter. In simple words these are most of the time used as surprise element. It houses a good radar but it need to fly fast and also need to perform several clearer & cleaner maneuvers to achieve a kill. Many a times it need to do the catching task as well and there are many more.

Do you mean higher speed?

No.I mean higher acceleration. It's take time to reach the desired speed.Not quite suitable for catching role in case the adversary aircraft is very close to the base or moving towards it's target and it need to intercept from behind.

How do you compare it with Jf-17?

Look I don't know much about Jf-17 and IAF is no longer worried about the capability of PAF fighters. These days we are not building our capability based on threat perception from Pakistan but from China. In northern borders it is difficult to track fighters specially when they fly low. So we need a quick reaction system.

Why don't IAF induct few squadrons of Tejas while it matures something similar to what PLAAF do?

IAF believe in quality over quantity. To tell you, IAF is short of close to 200 fighters what it really should have. But we know our quality is good enough to overcome that gap.So instead of filling the gap, IAF will wait for the quality to arrive or mature.

So you believe LCA mk2 will match the quality standards and requirement of IAF?

I think so. Tejas is quite a mature platform other than the shortcomings I just mention. I believe those will get solve in the subsequent development. But it will again depend, if it arrives on time,because delay may change the threat perception and thus requirement of IAF.

Don't you think the ever changing requirement of IAF is the main reason for the delay of Tejas?

It could be one but the only reason.And you need to understand there is no joy in inducting a fighter which we know will become obsolete within a decade. Rather we want platform which we can use for 2-3 decades. There were certain delays which could have been avoided and the concerned persons are working in the field so as not to repeat the same mistake in future developments.

So fighters can also be updated to the current gen standard.

This is a complete misconception. You can surely make few changes but not all. Engine of BMW fitted in Honda will not make it a BMW.(He owns Honda City)Updating a fighter can be understood as "servicing your car to increase the longevity of it's engine and other parts.Yes in addition to that one can make certain changes in the code of the platform so as to make it carry newer developed weapons.

I heard that LCA mk1 will only be used for training and not combat.Is it true?

I really don't know. But I wanna tell you that whenever a new fighter is inducted, it is not used in the combat thereafter. Pilots of IAF need to have a complete understanding of the fighter and it's ability. And then we need to develop strategies and few more things are there. These thing take time. So initially it will be used for training only. Whether it will be used in combat in future or not will be a diplomatic call based on the confidence of pilots about the platform.

You have been talking about point defence but don't you think with the fifth gen stealth technology, the importance of dogfight and point defence will fall?

1 vs 1 close combat is one of the most important ability and it will never become obsolete. Specially for the country whose adversaries are their neighbours, this is one of the important capability of a fighter as well as the pilot. These situation may become less relevant when adversaries are distant apart say Russia and USA but not in the case of India.

So what are your takes on the FGFA which India is going to induct in future?

I don't have enough knowledge on this to share. Only few top officials of IAF has the complete idea.

And AMCA?

Not much either. It is still a baby whose complete dressing style has not been decided yet.

But what about the model they share with us during Aero India?

I haven't seen the model but only in pictures. Only thing I can inform you on this is that, it is very ambitious project of India. IAF and research agencies are working together to make it a success. There are many critical technologies which India has to build from scratch.

Which is the most critical or most difficult technology that India need to overcome?

Laughs again. There are a few. But accordingly to me it's engine. I term engine because India still has no significant expertise in developing fighter engine. And developing a fifth gen fighter engine is completely a new and harder challenge. Take it this way, that the structure of your fighter is very good but your engine is something like the one fitted on Sukhoi. The whole concept of stealth will go away for a toss.

Experience gain from FGFA project will help?

Definitely. But take it this way that we will not be using that engine on our fighters.

Thanks for info

 

[Anony]

you still don't get it do you?

when you'll realise that you indians can talk the talk forever, but if you want to come down to the earth to compare reality rule #1 is to make a reality first yourself - that is to say to put lca in series production and service - then you have the the basic qualification to compare it with eihter j-10a, or jf-17, or F-22 or whatever you fancy.

until that happens, whatever you claim lca this or that is NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING, that different in essence from either what you claimed countless times during the last 3 decades that "lca can this and that", or what i can claim on a plane that i draw using my pencil during teabreaks.

so indians believe that the ONLY big problem regarding lca boils down to the engine eh? then is it reasonable to assume that if it takes > 3 decades, as it does, to finally have realised it has engine problem, then it would probably take the same amount of time, if not more, to do a complete "heart transplant" from now on on this "quite a mature platform" omghaha: excuse me, can't resist the joke) with fingers acrossed in the hope that it could breath with a tube in the nose, at least in the lab, for some more days?

meanwhile, you still have the gall to compare it to jf-17 or j-10a on mass proiduction and in service...

First learn to discuss as I am not answerable to you and stop calling YOU INDIANS.

We Indians are proud that we are not copy-cat and don't unethically and illegally copy the technology of our arm suppliers.

We Indians are proud to enter in a full scale war and win hands down as compared to your nation who has never entered in a full scale war and what happen in Vietnam war is not hidden.

We Indians are proud that we thump our chest at success and criticize our inability at failure and don't have a habbit of saying the success and hiding the failure.

We Indians are proud that we rule the Indian Ocean(the largest oil supply route on the planet).

We Indians are proud that within 65 years of our independence we have become the fourth largest defence power in the world.

We Indians are proud to have kept our adversaries out of Indian water even when they posses nuclear submarine since 1964 when we didn't had capable frigates as well.

We Indians are proud that we are not back-stabbers unlike our northern neighbour who has back-stabbed everyone those has trusted them

 

[Speeder 2]

First learn to discuss as I am not answerable to you and stop calling YOU INDIANS.

We Indians are proud that we are not copy-cat and don't unethically and illegally copy the technology of our arm suppliers.

We Indians are proud to enter in a full scale war and win hands down as compared to your nation who has never entered in a full scale war and what happen in Vietnam war is not hidden.

We Indians are proud that we thump our chest at success and criticize our inability at failure and don't have a habbit of saying the success and hiding the failure.

We Indians are proud that we rule the Indian Ocean(the largest oil supply route on the planet).

We Indians are proud that within 65 years of our independence we have become the fourth largest defence power in the world.

We Indians are proud to have kept our adversaries out of Indian water even when they posses nuclear submarine since 1964 when we didn't had capable frigates as well.

We Indians are proud that we are not back-stabbers unlike our northern neighbour who has back-stabbed everyone those has trusted them

We Indians are proud that we are a 3rd-rate copy-cat and don't have even a slight clue, unethically and illegally or not, on how to copy the technology of our arm suppliers.

We Indians are proud to enter in a full scale war in video games and win feet down only when permitted by our masters as compared to your nation who has in fact entered and won and/or drew ALL major full scale wars, from ww2, korean war, 1962, and so on...


We Indians are proud that we thump our chest at success and our failures every time and all the time , beating even the persimistic expectations, and don't have a habbit of saying the failures and hiding the success .

We Indians are proud that we rule the Indian Ocean(the largest oil supply route on the planet)whenever we fall into our wet dreams.

We Indians are proud that within 65 years of our independence we have become the fourth largest defence spending (aka importing which is to beg third party help)supapawa in the world while can not even produce the simplest bullet and rifle.

We Indians are proud to have kept our masters out of Indian water, at least in dreams, even when they posses nuclear submarine since 1964 when we didn't had capable frigates and still don't have... oh wait, did i just say "we rule the Indian Ocean"?

We Indians are proud that we are the original , finally for once, back-stabbers with our "forward policy" unlike our northern neighbour who hasn't
back-stabbed those has trusted them yet.

nah, fixed for ya!

 

[sancho]

There is no doubting HAL's ability to produce LCA at a low rate but do they have the ability to produce 200 defect free LCAs in four years at the rate of 1 aircraft a week? At one point India was looking to outsource LCA production.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/99763-drdo-looks-beyond-hal-tejas-production.html

Not India, DRDO and we know about their level of realism and why should we produce an LCA every week?

There are CoG issues, and weight gain issues.

Which should be the main problem, drag and weight of the MK1 on the one side, but even more weight will be added because of fuel tank, engines and possibly radar, IRST changes on the other.

 

[Anony]

We Indians are proud that we are a 3rd-rate copy-cat and don't have even a slight clue, unethically and illegally or not, on how to copy the technology of our arm suppliers.

We Indians are proud to enter in a full scale war in video games and win feet down only when permitted by our masters as compared to your nation who has in fact entered and won and/or drew ALL major full scale wars, from ww2, korean war, 1962, and so on...


We Indians are proud that we thump our chest at success and our failures every time and all the time , beating even the persimistic expectations, and don't have a habbit of saying the failures and hiding the success .

We Indians are proud that we rule the Indian Ocean(the largest oil supply route on the planet)whenever we fall into our wet dreams.

We Indians are proud that within 65 years of our independence we have become the fourth largest defence spending (aka importing which is to beg third party help)supapawa in the world while can not even produce the simplest bullet and rifle.

We Indians are proud to have kept our masters out of Indian water, at least in dreams, even when they posses nuclear submarine since 1964 when we didn't had capable frigates and still don't have... oh wait, did i just say "we rule the Indian Ocean"?

We Indians are proud that we are the original , finally for once, back-stabbers with our "forward policy" unlike our northern neighbour who hasn't
back-stabbed those has trusted them yet.

nah, fixed for ya!

We Chinese won Vietnam war:- Because the ashes of our pilot didn't reached China, so no confirmation of death.

We won Korean war:- Because Korea fail to capture Beijing and the percentage of Chinese soldiers died is less than percentage of Korean soldiers died.

We won WW2:- Though we didn't made a hint of impact to any adversary countries and though we were thrashed black&blue by Japan , we end up on winners side.

We are the superpower:- Because we can copy any critical technology, thus we will never need to invest on research. We will simply copy.

We will cross US in military within 2-3 decades:- Though our crap submarines can get detected from thousand of kilometer, our quantity of submarine will exceed to that of US. And moreover, we never retire our naval ships. Thus our fleet will be the sum of cumulative number of ships PLAN ever had.



This is .