INFORMAL DISCUSSION WITH IAF PERSONNEL ABOUT LCA AND AMCA

[MilSpec]

are you all right? seriously?

as long as chest-thumping goes, the sky is the limit for indians it seems. it cannot get any better than things like above.

stop bragging HAL will ya? HAL is a laughing stock of the world, not because it is not "big" but because it's WAY out of its depth. whatever it is, it is a manufacturing midget indeed.

"giant" is not an issue that can only be measured by # of employees which has nothing to do per se with the quality here.

using the same wordings you can replace HAL with Indian National Railway Company and keep bragging about how big it is...how many emplyees it has,etc. but just like HAL, it doesn't insinuate a bit about its quality. in fact most sane people know that HAL and Indian Railway Company alike are one of the most inefficient, technologically backward and corrupt entities around one can come across.


"HAL is a manufacturing giant, it boasts of product lines that very few companies around the world can, .." this examplified how deluded beyond absurdity most indians in this forum are.



is this the joke of month or year?

this is like asking, leave aside the shortcomings of being cyber, tell me one other point where the bike i draw using my computer is behind the bikes sold in the bikestore around the corner that have been running in streets for a decade?

answer: the diff is like day and night, everything and anything, mostly.

Although I am well aware of this being a flame bait, i will still take it.

Do you know how many product lines Hindustan Aeronautics ltd operates. Currently HAL supports complete overhaul for Mig21Bison, Mig27M, Dornier, Cheetah, Cheetak, HS748 and Jaguar, Along with that, it produces the SU30MKI, AJT, ALH (3 variants). It also supports indigenous upgrades packages for DARIN III and DARE II for jaguar and Mig27 respectively, In future It will be tasked with overhail for MKI, Mirage 200, Upgrades of Mig29upg, Serial production of LCA Mk1 and Batch production LCA mk2, Along with that there will be upgrade of MKI to Super 30, batch production of ALH, ALH WSO, and LCH. HAL also produces and overhauls over 10 engines of russian and western origin, provides communication upgrades for aircrafts as well as ground units. Overhauls IAF radar equipment, Manufactures subsystems for PSLV ISRO, and produces turboprop engines for Honeywell and structural equipment for both Airbus and boeing.

I do stand in awe of such product line the tight rope balancing that HAL plays to provide the best national service by still maintaining profitability. Is there room for improvement, sure! but as per your claims that our quality is bad, please do let me know how do you come to that conclusion.

What do you know about HAL's quality, HAL's COPQ or inspection protocols? HAL's management uses a strict opex regime towards all it's work flow, and its inspection and quality regime takes a higher priority than delivery. My ultimate hope is with HAL becoming more self reliant with LCA, out inventory costs will reduce, we will obtain better takt time on production. Due to the nature of HAL order entry and demand, entire production facility of HAL is based on Flexible manufacturing system optimized for batch production and not mass production, hence for atleast the next decade ot so we will never be in the position to produce an aircraft every week as General dynamics or lockheed.

 

[Dillinger]

Although I am well aware of this being a flame bait, i will still take it.

Do you know how many product lines Hindustan Aeronautics ltd operates. Currently HAL supports complete overhaul for Mig21Bison, Mig27M, Dornier, Cheetah, Cheetak, HS748 and Jaguar, Along with that, it produces the SU30MKI, AJT, ALH (3 variants). It also supports indigenous upgrades packages for DARIN III and DARE II for jaguar and Mig27 respectively, In future It will be tasked with overhail for MKI, Mirage 200, Upgrades of Mig29upg, Serial production of LCA Mk1 and Batch production LCA mk2, Along with that there will be upgrade of MKI to Super 30, batch production of ALH, ALH WSO, and LCH. HAL also produces and overhauls over 10 engines of russian and western origin, provides communication upgrades for aircrafts as well as ground units. Overhauls IAF radar equipment, Manufactures subsystems for PSLV ISRO, and produces turboprop engines for Honeywell and structural equipment for both Airbus and boeing.

I do stand in awe of such product line the tight rope balancing that HAL plays to provide the best national service by still maintaining profitability. Is there room for improvement, sure! but as per your claims that our quality is bad, please do let me know how do you come to that conclusion.

What do you know about HAL's quality, HAL's COPQ or inspection protocols? HAL's management uses a strict opex regime towards all it's work flow, and its inspection and quality regime takes a higher priority than delivery. My ultimate hope is with HAL becoming more self reliant with LCA, out inventory costs will reduce, we will obtain better takt time on production. Due to the nature of HAL order entry and demand, entire production facility of HAL is based on Flexible manufacturing system optimized for batch production and not mass production, hence for atleast the next decade ot so we will never be in the position to produce an aircraft every week as General dynamics or lockheed.

Sir what is your take on the AMCA project, shouldn't we have designed it around an available engine to begin with rather than depending upon GTRE?

Can HAL/DRDO/ADA actually provide the technology required for an exacting 5th gen design, if so then how will they translate that on an industrial scale?
@S-DUCT had posted on the reults of the frequency selective material research specially pertaining to radomes required on a 5th gen fighter to fully exploit a LPI radar and research into RAM/RAS. How will HAL incorporate that into its production capabilities?

 

[MilSpec]

Sir what is your take on the AMCA project, shouldn't we have designed it around an available engine to begin with rather than depending upon GTRE?

Can HAL/DRDO/ADA actually provide the technology required for an exacting 5th gen design, if so then how will they translate that on an industrial scale?
@S-DUCT had posted on the reults of the frequency selective material research specially pertaining to radomes required on a 5th gen fighter to fully exploit a LPI radar and research into RAM/RAS. How will HAL incorporate that into its production capabilities?

I have always been frustrated by ADA/DRDO. There was a massive campaign in the 90's to circumvent HAL for LCA's development same prevailed with AMCA. If nothing the best way to go for AMCA would have been HAL and ADA/NAL compete for the AMCA design. It just seems to me ADA/DRDO work is not satisfactory according to HAL, which expects, design of tooling, Production designs for all subsytems, specification for Jigs and fixtures when it comes to manufacturing from the design agency, as it is used to from Sukhoi, mikoyan, BAE, etc. Whereas when it comes to ADA their project packaging is done haphazardly which poses huge problems for HAL. Apart from that IAF indecisiveness doesn't help the cause either.

As far as AMCA is concerned, it was conceived way in the beginning as a larger tailless variant LCA and was called the MCA, then something else transpired between IAF and Drdo and then the MCA turned into the AMCA a low observable semi stealth a/c and since our next door neighbor has scared bejesus outta IAF with their new prototypes, now it seems AMCA has turned into a 5th gen fighter. My understanding is DRDO often plans it's projects without accounting for the timeline for the project management in developing key technologies for such fighters and builds no safeguards in terms of failing certain projects, such as kaveri engine.

DRDO pitches products without showing any substantial proven project management and execution details, and doesn't build multiple teams towards same objective, hence if it's project fails, we have to end up shelving the project of looking towards sourcing products from foreign suppliers, who in turn ripp us off by charging exhorbitant prices for subsystems (including israel france italy and US).

HAL on the other hand is much more realistac about project delivery and will ensure from the get go of not over projecting it's capabilities.HAL also has better track record in expediting projects to deliver key technologies in an acceptable timeline, (DARE, ALH, ALH WSO, Bison, Litening Architacture Upg, etc). AMCA project still hasn't been frozen HAL should be involved in a much larger role if IAF doesn't want become another LCA like episode.

My gut feeling if ADA's continues its to throw it's know it all attitude towards HAL, it will devote it's all energies to FGFA from HAL Nasik div. It will rule IAF hearts and Indian skies just like the MKI. Best bet for ADA is to work in close co-operation with HAL banglore div, show some humility and learn from the Rafale project's execution to package the AMCA project in conjunction with HAL. If ADA can build better synergy with HAL, AMCA project should be fine, the best possible place to start is with LCA mk2

 

[Dillinger]

I have always been frustrated by ADA/DRDO. There was a massive campaign in the 90's to circumvent HAL for LCA's development same prevailed with AMCA. If nothing the best way to go for AMCA would have been HAL and ADA/NAL compete for the AMCA design. It just seems to me ADA/DRDO work is not satisfactory according to HAL, which expects, design of tooling, Production designs for all subsytems, specification for Jigs and fixtures when it comes to manufacturing from the design agency, as it is used to from Sukhoi, mikoyan, BAE, etc. Whereas when it comes to ADA their project packaging is done haphazardly which poses huge problems for HAL. Apart from that IAF indecisiveness doesn't help the cause either.

As far as AMCA is concerned, it was conceived way in the beginning as a larger tailless variant LCA and was called the MCA, then something else transpired between IAF and Drdo and then the MCA turned into the AMCA a low observable semi stealth a/c and since our next door neighbor has scared bejesus outta IAF with their new prototypes, now it seems AMCA has turned into a 5th gen fighter. My understanding is DRDO often plans it's projects without accounting for the timeline for the project management in developing key technologies for such fighters and builds no safeguards in terms of failing certain projects, such as kaveri engine.

DRDO pitches products without showing any substantial proven project management and execution details, and doesn't build multiple teams towards same objective, hence if it's project fails, we have to end up shelving the project of looking towards sourcing products from foreign suppliers, who in turn ripp us off by charging exhorbitant prices for subsystems (including israel france italy and US).

HAL on the other hand is much more realistac about project delivery and will ensure from the get go of not over projecting it's capabilities.HAL also has better track record in expediting projects to deliver key technologies in an acceptable timeline, (DARE, ALH, ALH WSO, Bison, Litening Architacture Upg, etc). AMCA project still hasn't been frozen HAL should be involved in a much larger role if IAF doesn't want become another LCA like episode.

My gut feeling if ADA's continues its to throw it's know it all attitude towards HAL, it will devote it's all energies to FGFA from HAL Nasik div. It will rule IAF hearts and Indian skies just like the MKI. Best bet for ADA is to work in close co-operation with HAL banglore div, show some humility and learn from the Rafale project's execution to package the AMCA project in conjunction with HAL. If ADA can build better synergy with HAL, AMCA project should be fine, the best possible place to start is with LCA mk2

For an absolute noob like me, could you break it down.

Who designs the air crafts, who manufactures them?

Do DRDO, ADA and HAL all take part in the design process of the same aircraft- like the LCA?

I have heard what you've posted before but never in the succinct manner that you've presented in that HAL resents the fact that DRDO never provides specifics for manufacturing such as the tooling and jigs.

Also who is responsible for MRO and maintenance work on these aircraft? Are HAL produced MKIs of the same quality as those directly procured from Russia? Prasun Sengupta keeps stating that HAL's MKI production line is deficient and still outsources a lot of components from Russia rather than actually building the whole fighter in country- also that their rate of production is low. Your rebuttal on that?

Any hope that HAL will finally have its way and have its legitimate demands met so that it may provide what is required by the IAF?

 

[Speeder 2]

I have always been frustrated by ADA/DRDO. There was a massive campaign in the 90's to circumvent HAL for LCA's development same prevailed with AMCA. If nothing the best way to go for AMCA would have been HAL and ADA/NAL compete for the AMCA design. It just seems to me ADA/DRDO work is not satisfactory according to HAL, which expects, design of tooling, Production designs for all subsytems, specification for Jigs and fixtures when it comes to manufacturing from the design agency, as it is used to from Sukhoi, mikoyan, BAE, etc. Whereas when it comes to ADA their project packaging is done haphazardly which poses huge problems for HAL. Apart from that IAF indecisiveness doesn't help the cause either.

As far as AMCA is concerned, it was conceived way in the beginning as a larger tailless variant LCA and was called the MCA, then something else transpired between IAF and Drdo and then the MCA turned into the AMCA a low observable semi stealth a/c and since our next door neighbor has scared bejesus outta IAF with their new prototypes, now it seems AMCA has turned into a 5th gen fighter. My understanding is DRDO often plans it's projects without accounting for the timeline for the project management in developing key technologies for such fighters and builds no safeguards in terms of failing certain projects, such as kaveri engine.

DRDO pitches products without showing any substantial proven project management and execution details, and doesn't build multiple teams towards same objective, hence if it's project fails, we have to end up shelving the project of looking towards sourcing products from foreign suppliers, who in turn ripp us off by charging exhorbitant prices for subsystems (including israel france italy and US).

HAL on the other hand is much more realistac about project delivery and will ensure from the get go of not over projecting it's capabilities.HAL also has better track record in expediting projects to deliver key technologies in an acceptable timeline, (DARE, ALH, ALH WSO, Bison, Litening Architacture Upg, etc). AMCA project still hasn't been frozen HAL should be involved in a much larger role if IAF doesn't want become another LCA like episode.

My gut feeling if ADA's continues its to throw it's know it all attitude towards HAL, it will devote it's all energies to FGFA from HAL Nasik div. It will rule IAF hearts and Indian skies just like the MKI. Best bet for ADA is to work in close co-operation with HAL banglore div, show some humility and learn from the Rafale project's execution to package the AMCA project in conjunction with HAL. If ADA can build better synergy with HAL, AMCA project should be fine, the best possible place to start is with LCA mk2

How typical that Indians blame the failures of the tech projects all to "substantial non-proven project management and execution details", just like they blame the failure of India all to "corrupted govt", "lack of good leaders" etc.

China's govt is corrupt too, to the similar extend America's, and no one is a natural-born perfect manager for projects. Mistakes are often. BUT they deliver, despite all the odds, particularly China which suffers till today world-wide high tech embargo while unlike China, India can buy anything under the sun (except perhaps a straight F-22A and a hydrogen bomb) and can participate in any world-wide high tech conference to absorb values and can hire any western top consultant it likes to assist to assemble pieces under TOT.



Don't you get it?

THE only SINGLE reason why India is doomed to fail and why most of the projects of DRDO and HAL have undertaken doom to fail, is far beyond poor project management, poor leadership or poor organisational skills, but the fact that India is still an agricultural society dotted with some shining brand-new call centres at the south.

India is NOT an industrialised country, not even industrialising.

Don't you get it? Do you know what does it imply?

It explains why India struggles to make most basic level industrial or manufacturing consumer goods.

It explains why India struggles to make most basic level industrial military gears such as bullets and rifles.

It explains why India struggles much more to make higher level military gears such as tanks, artilleries, let alone warships and planes which reflect the highest level of industrialisation of a country.

China didn't make J-20 frist and Rome wasn't built within a day.

for 4 decades China made 3 gen J-7, j-8, Q-5, exported a hell lot to the world.

China made 3.5 to entry level 4th gen jf-17.

China then made standard 4th gen j-10 and J-11, followed by 4.5 gen j-10B before any attempt was made to J-20 and J-31.

India? straight to 5+ gen AMCA it seems while it fails to even deliver a light 3+ gen LCA!



Can one really say with a straight face that a primary school student that agricultural India is can somehow magically pass industrial post-grad exams(planes, destroyers, sub, etc) while fail miserablely on every single primary school exams (bullets, rifles, artilleries, tanks, etc.).

Perhaps Indians believe in such a "miracle" happening all of a sudden and cheerleading some bizarre failures such as LCA, Arjun, Insas, etc, yet most of the rest of the world doesn't share the same delusion and consider such failures are not casual but inclusively guaranteed.

If Indians here insist so after so many repeated crystal-clearly straightforward explanations such as aforementioned, it forces one to think that it must due to thier average IQ range, simplely because no other sane explanation left.

Is that understood?

 

[Kloitra]

put words in my mouth? hyperbole?

that dude claimed "quite a mature platform" isn't it?

i dunno what plaaf call it, but to tell the world that lca is "quite a mature platform" in any sense is laughable to the least.

and you talk about how mature it is as of it were a f-16. don't you people feel a bit irony, i mean ever?

The you in your statement specifically meant me, didn't it? And if it didn't, and you meant symbolically, how conveniently you ignore that the term mature in the opening post is a bit symbolic too. And it is just a rough translation from a different language to English!

Mocking an unintentional exaggeration with a rhetoric of your own, and claiming high ground! Had you tried to give it some thought, you would have been able to make a not so dumb comment as 'on drawing board'.

 

[MilSpec]

For an absolute noob like me, could you break it down.

Who designs the air crafts, who manufactures them?

Do DRDO, ADA and HAL all take part in the design process of the same aircraft- like the LCA?

I have heard what you've posted before but never in the succinct manner that you've presented in that HAL resents the fact that DRDO never provides specifics for manufacturing such as the tooling and jigs.

Also who is responsible for MRO and maintenance work on these aircraft? Are HAL produced MKIs of the same quality as those directly procured from Russia? Prasun Sengupta keeps stating that HAL's MKI production line is deficient and still outsources a lot of components from Russia rather than actually building the whole fighter in country- also that their rate of production is low. Your rebuttal on that?

Any hope that HAL will finally have its way and have its legitimate demands met so that it may provide what is required by the IAF?

Production design:
For a high technology complex system like Su30MKI, The system design, production planning ans assembly is done in three phases of technology transfer, which is quite similar to automotive industry.

Phase I
The most complex part of manufacturing aircraft is the assembly process, or rather a smooth problem free assembly process. Hence in the first phase of ToT, training teams from russia train HAL final assembly staff in training cells and prepare the workstations rigs for assembly.

Then assembly fixtures arrive for installation in the assembly hangars and mock w/p are set up for dry runs
CKD kits from Irkut were flown to nasik division.

These ckd kits are assembled under Russian supervision where tech leads are trained by russian techs.

Pre-Phase II (In conjunction with phase I)

On conjunction to above , process, plating, avionics, machining, stamping, profiling, engine, electrical, hydraulics and landing gear work cells, are released the design data amounting to almost 50% of the subsystems

Planning department then streamlines the production schedule, and begins the early launch containment programs for each product line. End of the line testing workcell are established according to design requirements specified by the irkut.

Phase II begins.

Instead of CKD, only high technology complex subsystems are importedd from Irkut and on the assembly line HAL produced equipment is substituted, Quality checks at end of the line are the strictest possible. These subsytems in my experience are of even better quality that the russian sourced ones. Russian assembly technicians roles are reduced, with HAL techinicians taking over complete build schedule.

Phase III
This is the tricky phase where HAL tries to use it's resources for indigenous production of phase 2 subsytems, and bring in experts from russia for complete technology transfer for Phase 3 subsytems. This part is tricky because no manufacturer wants give out subsytems that are highly profitable and the designers tend to try and keep some level of interdependence. Albiet with successful deployment of phase 3, HAL gets into the position of successfully building the entire aircraft from scratch minus a few subsystems.

LCA:

HAL did not take any part in LCA's design. HAL has an AFS in it's compound, it employs the best IAF pilots as it's CTP and is very cognizant of flying characteristics whereas ADA chaps live in lala land and have a smug assumption that they know better than both HAL and the IAF. HAL was brought in when ADA chaps oblivious of manufacturing process ran into problems with production design, plant layout, workflow management, material planning etc. Now imagine with MKI lines running full steam, and HAL being snubbed from the beginning with LCA, what level of resources HAL might have provided for LCA support system. After all it was out of goodwill and not a paid gig.

And then when ADA did come up with the final so called LCA Mk1 package, HAL drilled holes after holes in its poorly packaged plan. HAL did what it could to patch the project to build what ADA wanted, knowing from the beginning , that it is uterlly mismanaged by ada and wont be accepted by IAF. But the MoD and antony baba stepped in and got the IOC, Now that HAL sees that this is going to eventually fall on HAL''s head, top brass of HAL is taking the initiative for the MK2, and fighting hard to "get it done", and the timing couldn't be worse with ELC for ALH, LCH approaching, MKI lines running full steam and the rafale sword dangling overhead, production package for Mk2 is big hassle.

The plan I am hoping is the same HAL followed for getting Mig 21 Bis> Bison standard, but just on a larger scale, another impediment is banglore division of HAL is a complex of multiple units, and runninga dedicated full line there along with jag overhaul, Mig 29 Upgrade, AJT production and Rafale ELC is a little troublesome, and the big guys at nasik division have thier hands full with MKI and planning for FGFA.

The best option would have been to build a additional line in HAL nasik, but LCA is a low cost and unfortunately still a low volume product and doesn't mandate building additional lines. So unless there premium offered by either AMCA design and research or LCA high volume order book, the production for LCA will depend on "jugaad".

Also who is responsible for MRO and maintenance work on these aircraft? Are HAL produced MKIs of the same quality as those directly procured from Russia? Prasun Sengupta keeps stating that HAL's MKI production line is deficient and still outsources a lot of components from Russia rather than actually building the whole fighter in country- also that their rate of production is low. Your rebuttal on that?

Are HAL MKI's same as russia, the answer is yes and no!
Some subsystems are indeed of superior quality and excellent value compared to russian subsystems. Some equipment are indianized versions of russian which are as good, but are in the early atage of thier product life cycle and hence have the room to grow. these subsystems can be refered to as equipment that might be not as good as thier russian versions but are adequate, safe and highly cost effective.

About some of the subsystems being sourced from russia, as I mentioned even in phase 3 of the ToT, the original designers like to keep some subsytems proprietery, because they are a constant source of income. There is no way around it, Russians are not the only one who do that, key subsystems for F16 were not transferred by general dynamics to samsung ot fokker.

Yes indeed production rate for HAL is low as I said, the manufacturing system in HAL incorporates FMS and not a line production system which are optimized for mass production. When MKI project was envisaged, 100 aircraft were planned and subsequently appropriate workcells were formed, Now Indian economy and MoD got fat with our tax money and decided to get 300 aircrafts instead, which reeks of extremely poor planning. If such order book was commissioned form the beginning , HAL would have set up the work cells to produce 40 aircraft a year instead of 15. Infrastructure for manufacturing aircrafts is quite complex, and immense foresight is needed for it's execution. When IAF top brass behaves like a rich brat, it is difficult to create a harmonious synergy. As far as mr sengupta is concerned, doubt if can even use a micrometer screw gauge, i wont attach much weight to his opinion.

Now to answer your last question , Ummid pe duniya kayam hain

How typical that India......................................
BLAH BLA BLAH BLAH Blah Blah.........................................................................................d crystal-clearly straightforward explanations such as aforementioned, it forces one to think that it must due to thier average IQ range, simplely because no other sane explanation left.

Is that understood?

why troll... your blaberring doesn't even make sense... go crap on a different thread...

 

[janon]

@sandy_3126: Good series of posts. And ignore the troll, he is not worth the time.

BTW, do you have any experience working on the LCA project itself?

 

[MilSpec]

@sandy_3126: Good series of posts. And ignore the troll, he is not worth the time.

BTW, do you have any experience working on the LCA project itself?

nopes... mig 27 landing gear... mki sub systems

 

[janon]

so typical low IQ indians these are:

1. chitchating without basic logic

2. write a full page crap to convey a very basic concept, yet packed with logical fallcies

3. when a high IQ people point out to them, they go bananas...

When boasting about your high IQ, make sure your determiner and noun agree.

I am reminded of the infamous Bushism, when George W Bush was talking about the importance of education: "Is our children learning?"

I'm not being a grammar nazi, but to hear a dude boast about his intelligence and deride other people's intelligence, while writing with the smartness of a 3rd grader is so comically risible.

Anyway, understand this - anybody who reads your posts and the posts of the gentleman you are spewing against, will easily judge who is gifted in the intelligence department, and who has been cheated of that quality.

Just take a look at your posts, and his, and ask yourself who adds value to the forum, and who provides comic interlude for everybody at his own expense. (Thanks for that, BTW.)

 

[dbc]

Not India, DRDO and we know about their level of realism and why should we produce an LCA every week?

At 44 days for one LCA as stated by sandy you're looking at a production rate of 8 LCA's per year, 25 years to produce 200 LCA's. At 48 LCA's per year or one per week the IAF and Indian Navy will receive all 180 to 200 LCA's in 5 years or less.

Do you believe the LCA will be operationally relevant for Indian forces 25 years from now? Remember, the last LCA that rolls off the production line in 2038 will remain in service for at least 10 years.

 

[sancho]

At 44 days for one LCA as stated by sandy you're looking at a production rate of 8 LCA's per year, 25 years to produce 200 LCA's. At 48 LCA's per year or one per week the IAF and Indian Navy will receive all 180 to 200 LCA's in 5 years or less.

Do you believe the LCA will be operationally relevant for Indian forces 25 years from now? Remember, the last LCA that rolls off the production line in 2038 will remain in service for at least 10 years.

That doesn't make any sense! Sandy is talking about the initial production rate, while the top rate according to HAL is 16 per year and as they stated, the aim is to produce 188 in 12 years.

 

[Speeder 2]

You Indians can be proud of her Queen's English of other people and kiss the ground walked by a whiteman all you want, it is no substitute every time as a lame “comeback” when you fail miserablely on logic.

The logic is simple, for any readers with IQ>85:

- No curry, no chicken masala;

No wok, no fired rice.

- If you fail to understand the principle behind what is 4+3, you have close to zero credibility on what is 21/15^2 +6;

If you don’t have the technology and fai to produce a much simpler workable bullet and rifle, you have close to zero credibility on producing a workable rocket or a modern destroyer or airplane, at least no indigenously.

- If you fail all junior high school exams, you have zero credibility to go to uni or pos-grad instead;

If you fail a basic exam like 3+ gen LCA Tejas, you have zero credibility to go for exams of 4+ gen or 5 gen.

Is that simple enough?


Now, for readers having IQ>85, you don’t need to be Einstein to understand the making of this landing gear:

The underlying physics, design, shape, materials of landing gears are quite simple. Almost everyone knows. The only hard part is how to make it and with what to make it – or more precisely, how to make the machine that makes landing gears.

It’s just like everyone knows the principle of how to make snickers, yet you can’t make snickers without a shoe production line.

Only 1 machine makes landing gears. And it does so automatically.

Only 4 countries in the entire world having this machine suitable for heavy fighter landing gears: US, Russian, France and China.

The tiny error I made earlier was that 60,000 tons grinding machine is from France, not Russia, which has 75,000 tons instead.

Now look at this awesome sucker from China. This is the world’s top grinding machine, freaking 80,000 ton using 10 years in the making, with 15m underground and 27m above ground, totalling 42 m - about 13 stories high:





Yes, this thing , and ONLY this thing, can make land gears for heavy fighters. Only 4 countries have it.

The Chinese machine makes 1 landing gear every 3 minutes automatically.


What this thing, and ONLY this thing, does?

- it makes pipes of ALL of existing worldwide oil pipeline.

- it makes ALL advanced deep sea drilling tools.

- it makes ALL key large piece spine structures of a modern airplane : this alone explains why only these 4 countries in the world have the qualification to build an modern aircraft indigenously. That why Boeing is based in the US instead of Canada, Airbus is HQed in France instead of Germany, XAC is located in China instead of Japan… now you should know, betting your house, where those “indigenous” Su-30MKI key structures are made and imported from.

- it makes ALL key part hard alloys of turbine disks of a space rocket and a ICBM : this alone explains why only these 4 countries in the world having truly indigenous and independent Rocket and/or ICBM producing capabilities. “Indigenous” Agni rockets? now you should know, betting your house, where those key parts of Agni are made and imported from.

- it makes ALL the key part of a modern aircraft engine, namely turbine disks (this alone also explains why only these 4 countries in the world have the qualification to build an modern engine indigenously. “Indigenous” Kevari engine? now you should know, betting your house, where the turbine disks of Kevari are made and imported from.

- it makes ALL, again, landing gears for ALL worldwide heavy fighters.


I have no problem at all if that some Indian says that he

a. is in charge of importing land gears, or

b. paints the imported landing gears, or

c. assembles the imported landing gears to the rest parts of a plane.

Now you tell me that India is making or has experiences with landing gears How? and with what? Screwdrivers, a Bangalore phoneline, and a little bit “magical” bulls***t?

 

[Alfa-Fighter]

You Indians can be proud of her Queen's English of other people and kiss the ground walked by a whiteman all you want, it is no substitute every time as a lame “comeback” when you fail miserablely on logic.

The logic is simple, for any readers with IQ>85:

- No curry, no chicken masala;

No wok, no fired rice.

- If you fail to understand the principle behind what is 4+3, you have close to zero credibility on what is 21/15^2 +6;

If you don’t have the technology and fai to produce a much simpler workable bullet and rifle, you have close to zero credibility on producing a workable rocket or a modern destroyer or airplane, at least no indigenously.

- If you fail all junior high school exams, you have zero credibility to go to uni or pos-grad instead;

If you fail a basic exam like 3+ gen LCA Tejas, you have zero credibility to go for exams of 4+ gen or 5 gen.

Is that simple enough?


Now, for readers having IQ>85, you don’t need to be Einstein to understand the making of this landing gear:

The underlying physics, design, shape, materials of landing gears are quite simple. Almost everyone knows. The only hard part is how to make it and with what to make it – or more precisely, how to make the machine that makes landing gears.

It’s just like everyone knows the principle of how to make snickers, yet you can’t make snickers without a shoe production line.

Only 1 machine makes landing gears. And it does so automatically.

Only 4 countries in the entire world having this machine suitable for heavy fighter landing gears: US, Russian, France and China.

The tiny error I made earlier was that 60,000 tons grinding machine is from France, not Russia, which has 75,000 tons instead.

Now look at this awesome sucker from China. This is the world’s top grinding machine, freaking 80,000 ton using 10 years in the making, with 15m underground and 27m above ground, totalling 42 m - about 13 stories high:





Yes, this thing , and ONLY this thing, can make land gears for heavy fighters. Only 4 countries have it.

The Chinese machine makes 1 landing gear every 3 minutes automatically.


What this thing, and ONLY this thing, does?

- it makes pipes of ALL of existing worldwide oil pipeline.

- it makes ALL advanced deep sea drilling tools.

- it makes ALL key large piece spine structures of a modern airplane : this alone explains why only these 4 countries in the world have the qualification to build an modern aircraft indigenously. That why Boeing is based in the US instead of Canada, Airbus is HQed in France instead of Germany, XAC is located in China instead of Japan… now you should know, betting your house, where those “indigenous” Su-30MKI key structures are made and imported from.

- it makes ALL key part hard alloys of turbine disks of a space rocket and a ICBM : this alone explains why only these 4 countries in the world having truly indigenous and independent Rocket and/or ICBM producing capabilities. “Indigenous” Agni rockets? now you should know, betting your house, where those key parts of Agni are made and imported from.

- it makes ALL the key part of a modern aircraft engine, namely turbine disks (this alone also explains why only these 4 countries in the world have the qualification to build an modern engine indigenously. “Indigenous” Kevari engine? now you should know, betting your house, where the turbine disks of Kevari are made and imported from.

- it makes ALL, again, landing gears for ALL worldwide heavy fighters.


I have no problem at all if that some Indian says that he

a. is in charge of importing land gears, or

b. paints the imported landing gears, or

c. assembles the imported landing gears to the rest parts of a plane.

Now you tell me that India is making or has experiences with landing gears How? and with what? Screwdrivers, a Bangalore phoneline, and a little bit “magical” bulls***t?

Typical China Mental Problem :

A) They Flied Attack Captor with Canada Engine, called theirs Own
B) Their Attack Helicopter was designed by Russia, before China called them Indigenous Design to fool its own people.
C) Not have ability to Build Aircraft Carrier, It take them years to study 2+ AC and still dont know how to make Aircraft Carrier.
D) Copy MIG-21, SU-27 Plane design called them their own Design.
F) Import Plane engine from Russia and installed and called themselves their.

Only china is the county in Earth which call other which make its own people fool and china people are biggest fools who believes in that.

Their WS-13 engine failed to fly FC/JF-17 so importing engine from Russia and their Russia for their china their WS-10 engines for copy of SU-27 plane.

Typical Chinese big mouth.

India make SU-MKI all components in India itself even engine from the scratch, because Russia believe in India and give Lic to build not unlike china try to copy and when failed ask russia to supply engine but keep secret.

China first stop lie about their Attack captor design , then talk

 

[Kloitra]

You Indians can be proud of her Queen's English of other people and kiss the ground walked by a whiteman all you want, it is no substitute every time as a lame “comeback” when you fail miserablely on logic.

The logic is simple, for any readers with IQ>85:

Blah blah blah....


- it makes ALL key part hard alloys of turbine disks of a space rocket and a ICBM : this alone explains why only these 4 countries in the world having truly indigenous and independent Rocket and/or ICBM producing capabilities. “Indigenous” Agni rockets? now you should know, betting your house, where those key parts of Agni are made and imported from.

Since you are so intelligent, equipped with the high quality, high IQ 'Chinese' brain, may you answer an insignificant question?

What role do turbine blades have in a solid fueled ballistic missile?