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SAC FC-31 Stealth Fighter: News & Discussions

What's up with the math? If the J-10A (roughly comparable to F-16 C/D) is 45 years behind F-22, which was inducted in 2005, then the US must have their similar aircraft, such as F-16C/D in service in 1960! No, the F-16 A/B entered service in 1978 and C/D in 1984, so the J-10A can only be behind F-22 tech by 21-27 years.

2005 - 1978 = 27
2005 - 1984 = 21


If the chinese so desire, they'll stage a mock combat exercise where J-10 will shoot down 100 F-22s
with no lossess of its own. and fanboys like you believe it like anything else.

I didn't say J-10 was 40-45 yr old tech, i said that J-10A was 40-45 yrs behind the F-35's and F-22's tech, if you
have any doubts regarding what i said, go back and read it all over again. case in point everyone
knows US tech is 20 yrs ahead of the rest of the world.

The f-22 raptor flew 15 yrs ago, at that time US had its own working AESA radar, they're own supercrusing
engines, and everything else. J-20 flew last year and only post-2015 will it get a working AESA and supercruising
engine. So technically china is running ~20 yrs behind US. And J-10A flew 14 yrs ago. At that time J-10A
was only comparable to F-16A which flew 38 yrs ago.

---

I said when a bangla member ranted that china refuses to sell j-10 due to fear of tech-leaks. then i said
that the tech offered by J-10A was 40 yrs behind the west, whilst saying J-10A is comparable to F-16A.

Chinese member said that if what i said was true, J-10 should have flown in 2033. But what he doesn't
realise is that IF j-10's tech is of today, then of what time does the tech of F-22 Raptor belong??

Im not comparing year-on-year, im comparing the technologies backwardness/advancement of jets
here. But the chinese member misunderstood me and said that 2033 thing. By his claim, J-10A is 15 years
ahead of F-22! How believable is that?

The US put on global market the F-35 many years ago and when will china be able to put the same
level of tech on the global market?

---

as of the myanmarese selection, they must have thought mig-29 is better than j-10 (a correct assessment)
and hence bought it. I never said j-10 can't handle mig-29. they are very comparable, but like i said above,
mig-29 can maneuever better than j-10, it also has higher TW ratio than j-10.
 
Oh boy, those Indians are really concerned about China's domestic engines.
They Mock china for everything India don't have either to prove we are at same level. Delusional ones.....they will keep pick china on what they could buy but china cant build in terms of world first class level. A nice way of motivation for china though....

At least what china have is Back door exempted.
 
What's up with the math? If the J-10A (roughly comparable to F-16 C/D) is 45 years behind F-22, which was inducted in 2005, then the US must have their similar aircraft, such as F-16C/D in service in 1960! No, the F-16 A/B entered service in 1978 and C/D in 1984, so the J-10A can only be behind F-22 tech by 21-27 years.

2005 - 1978 = 27
2005 - 1984 = 21

My friend, before F-16A, the Americans already had a defining 4th gen jet F-15 Eagle which flew in 1972.

The chinese equivalent to F-15 was the J-11A which also flew in 1998 only. And what I was saying is - The technology offered by the J-10A on the global market is only comparable to the tech demostrated by F-16A which flew almost 40 years with indigenous operational-level US engine.

J-10 flew in 1998 but when could it fly with indigenous engine as reliable as the US one? I've told people here i'm not comparing year-on-year but tech-on-tech a dozen times already. And "tech" means not just the airframe but the avionics, engines and their respective reliability as well.

Presently, the only "indigenous" chinese jet on offer to global buyers is the J-10 with AL-31FN engine. Look, even pakistan is trying to lobby hard in Russia for clearing the sale of AL-31 engines because the WS-10A is still not ready to power production-started single-engined aircraft, even if yes, then it still ain't reliable enough to please foreign buyers. If you'd follow the developments of PAF officers visiting Moscow in recent times, you would have known this.

While at the other hand, the best indigenous US jet on offer to global buyers is the F-35 JSF/Lightning-II. Which has the behemoth 191kN engine that is also indigenous, powerful AESA radar (which could jam even F-22's radar) and other advanced technology like EO-DAS and more. And the US put this plane in the sky some 6 years ago.

So if you consider F-35 JSF (export) and F-22 Raptor (non-export) as the benchmark of today...then J-10 is only comparable to the F-16A which flew some 38+ yrs ago. I said that J-10 was 40-45 yrs behind F-35/22 because even at the time of first flight, US had their own engine powering F-16 (or then even the YF-16 which flew in 1974), but still to this day, China does not have an indigenous engine reliable enough to fly an unproven airframe into the sky - thats why even J-20 has Saturn 117S engines and J-31 has RD-93 engines.
 
You are doing the same thing again. Defending your biased points that are unverifiable. Let me give you some pieces of advise:
1: The FIRST few lines out of the whole story you wrote....shows everyone that you are biased from the beginning. Thus, the rest is invalid also.
2: Comparing to F-35 and F-22, even Rafale and EFT are about 2-3 decades old. Both of these European planes started the design in early 90's. And this is almost 2013. There is NO comparison between FC-20, Rafale, JFT, EFT, F-16 and then F-35 and F-22. Even J-20 and J-31 and PakFa DON'T have any comparison (with the exception of 'some' stealthy features). That's the reality.
Now the fact that Chinese will create mocked fights...are you crazy??? The Janes and other independent organizations don't buy pre-staged data. They EVALUATE the weapons system on many standard dimensions including flight evaluations. You sound silly saying this stuff. A country may make a decision to put their security in the hands of FC-20 or Rafale or SU-30....if the staged fights is what gets sold.....you just put your country's defense in the hands of everyone!!! Think how serious these things are before just putting crap like this out there. Whatever happened to quality discussions on this forums. I am seriously thinking about leaving here as the quality's just down the drain on almost every thread.

read my reply to conworldus. and reply back only after you've understood precisely what i said.
 
My friend, before F-16A, the Americans already had a defining 4th gen jet F-15 Eagle which flew in 1972.

The chinese equivalent to F-15 was the J-11A which also flew in 1998 only. And what I was saying is - The technology offered by the J-10A on the global market is only comparable to the tech demostrated by F-16A which flew almost 40 years with indigenous operational-level US engine.

J-10 flew in 1998 but when could it fly with indigenous engine as reliable as the US one? I've told people here i'm not comparing year-on-year but tech-on-tech a dozen times already. And "tech" means not just the airframe but the avionics, engines and their respective reliability as well.

Presently, the only "indigenous" chinese jet on offer to global buyers is the J-10 with AL-31FN engine. Look, even pakistan is trying to lobby hard in Russia for clearing the sale of AL-31 engines because the WS-10A is still not ready to power production-started single-engined aircraft, even if yes, then it still ain't reliable enough to please foreign buyers. If you'd follow the developments of PAF officers visiting Moscow in recent times, you would have known this.

While at the other hand, the best indigenous US jet on offer to global buyers is the F-35 JSF/Lightning-II. Which has the behemoth 191kN engine that is also indigenous, powerful AESA radar (which could jam even F-22's radar) and other advanced technology like EO-DAS and more. And the US put this plane in the sky some 6 years ago.

So if you consider F-35 JSF (export) and F-22 Raptor (non-export) as the benchmark of today...then J-10 is only comparable to the F-16A which flew some 38+ yrs ago. I said that J-10 was 40-45 yrs behind F-35/22 because even at the time of first flight, US had their own engine powering F-16 (or then even the YF-16 which flew in 1974), but still to this day, China does not have an indigenous engine reliable enough to fly an unproven airframe into the sky - thats why even J-20 has Saturn 117S engines and J-31 has RD-93 engines.

What is your point??? No one is taking the FC-20 to fight against the F-22 or F-35......your Su-30, Rafale, PakFa are ALL based on similar technologies that make up all other lines of 4th generation fighter jets behind the F-22 and F-35. I am failing to understand your point.....If FC-20 uses the Russian engines, etc, etc....but it provides capabilities similar to Rafale or a notch below......how does that involve the F-22 and F-35 in the discussion? Totally different class and types and technologies....????
Again... what the hell's your points? If the whole point (coming from your previous posts also) is the 'China is 40 years behind'...you are mistaken. Even the US think tanks and Pentagon thinks China is about 10-15 years behind but catching up very rapidly and this is PRIMARILY with regards to F-22 and F-35. I think it is understood that their FC-20 and J11, 16's are already 80 % equivalent to the American counterparts. And NO, the F-16, F-15, etc, etc are not the SAME planes introduced in 1970's. They may have kept the same body as the airframe was tested and proved one of the most agile and best ones. But the capability has been entirely upgraded to the 4th generation tech of mid 90's 9long range bvr's, sat communication, data links, radars, ew, drfm, etc, etc).

Again, I fail to understand what is your main point? Can you quit going round and round in circles and JUST summarize in three lines and simple English for us?
 
What is your point??? No one is taking the FC-20 to fight against the F-22 or F-35......your Su-30, Rafale, PakFa are ALL based on similar technologies that make up all other lines of 4th generation fighter jets behind the F-22 and F-35. I am failing to understand your point.....If FC-20 uses the Russian engines, etc, etc....but it provides capabilities similar to Rafale or a notch below......how does that involve the F-22 and F-35 in the discussion? Totally different class and types and technologies....????
Again... what the hell's your points? If the whole point (coming from your previous posts also) is the 'China is 40 years behind'...you are mistaken. Even the US think tanks and Pentagon thinks China is about 10-15 years behind but catching up very rapidly and this is PRIMARILY with regards to F-22 and F-35. I think it is understood that their FC-20 and J11, 16's are already 80 % equivalent to the American counterparts. And NO, the F-16, F-15, etc, etc are not the SAME planes introduced in 1970's. They may have kept the same body as the airframe was tested and proved one of the most agile and best ones. But the capability has been entirely upgraded to the 4th generation tech of mid 90's 9long range bvr's, sat communication, data links, radars, ew, drfm, etc, etc).

Again, I fail to understand what is your main point? Can you quit going round and round in circles and JUST summarize in three lines and simple English for us?

Orangzaib dear, why are you debating with someone who seem to have no knowledge about anything. He is just trying to debate with ridiculous logic of his own. First he tried to compare J-31 with something which is still on papers. Then he is trying to prove J-10 as 40 years old technology. He has no idea of avionics or everything. A 1972's F-15 and today's f-15 or J-10 of 1998 and J-10 of 2012.... comparing apple with oranges without any knowledge base.
 
What is your point??? No one is taking the FC-20 to fight against the F-22 or F-35......your Su-30, Rafale, PakFa are ALL based on similar technologies that make up all other lines of 4th generation fighter jets behind the F-22 and F-35. I am failing to understand your point.....If FC-20 uses the Russian engines, etc, etc....but it provides capabilities similar to Rafale or a notch below......how does that involve the F-22 and F-35 in the discussion? Totally different class and types and technologies....????
Again... what the hell's your points? If the whole point (coming from your previous posts also) is the 'China is 40 years behind'...you are mistaken. Even the US think tanks and Pentagon thinks China is about 10-15 years behind but catching up very rapidly and this is PRIMARILY with regards to F-22 and F-35. I think it is understood that their FC-20 and J11, 16's are already 80 % equivalent to the American counterparts. And NO, the F-16, F-15, etc, etc are not the SAME planes introduced in 1970's. They may have kept the same body as the airframe was tested and proved one of the most agile and best ones. But the capability has been entirely upgraded to the 4th generation tech of mid 90's 9long range bvr's, sat communication, data links, radars, ew, drfm, etc, etc).

Again, I fail to understand what is your main point? Can you quit going round and round in circles and JUST summarize in three lines and simple English for us?

In simple english for simple brains like you - Im comparing the level of indigenousation and tech offered by J-10 from a single national vendor (china) to the same from US on the global market.

I have repeatedly said Im comparing the tech china has for export (J-10) to what US has for export (F-35), the debate started given a bangla's comment that china refuses to sell planes becoz of fearing technology leaks. And I pointed out how far behind the chinese export plane's tech is compared to what the US is offering for international buyers.

The conclusion of that point was that the No.1 reason for chinese J-10 not gaining a single export customer as yet in a competitive selection process was not becoz of fearing tech leaks or anything, it was coz the export customers in question had better products on offer and went ahead with them. Chinese planes have many years to go before gaining orders is a selection process like M-MRCA etc.

And then you entered the thread and spoilt things.

Orangzaib dear, why are you debating with someone who seem to have no knowledge about anything. He is just trying to debate with ridiculous logic of his own. First he tried to compare J-31 with something which is still on papers. Then he is trying to prove J-10 as 40 years old technology. He has no idea of avionics or everything. A 1972's F-15 and today's f-15 or J-10 of 1998 and J-10 of 2012.... comparing apple with oranges without any knowledge base.

If you have any knowledge base, just reply to my points regarding PAKFA v/s J-31 since the beginning
instead of commenting to fellow members to comfort them.
 
In simple english for simple brains like you - Im comparing the level of indigenousation and tech offered by J-10 from a single national vendor (china) to the same from US on the global market.

I have repeatedly said Im comparing the tech china has for export (J-10) to what US has for export (F-35). The conclusion of that point was that the No.1 reason for Chinese J-10 not gaining a single export customer as yet in a competitive selection process was not becoz of fearing tech leaks or anything, it was coz the export customers in question had better products on offer and went ahead with them.

This is one of the most moron-ish discussions one can get into. Anyway, my last post and a bit of a reality check. One comparing J-10 to F-35....is stupid to say the least. The US aviation industry has been evolving since the WWI. So an industry that has pioneered the flight technology to a country that's becoming a bigger power now....is silly.
SECOND AND THE MOST IMPORTANT: China, Russia, the UK or ANYONE else on the planet doesn't, can't and won't match the US technology for at least the next one or two decades. It sounds arrogant but its a reality check. J-20, PakFa, FgFa, Rafale or anything...doesn't match the F-22 or the F-35. That's a fact and it'll remain as such. Sure, within the next 10 years or so, the Chinese aviation industry will come ways ahead but still...there will be differences. The US military industrial complex has preserved itself at the top stop in the worse financial crisis and yet kept advancing.
Now, once the above is settled in your mind that the US and Chinese top line jets (F-22 and F-35 vs. J-10) have no comparison and that the US will always be more advanced..... let's move on:
Within the next decade however, from the signs of it, China will take over as the second largest and most advanced aviation industry / jet producer. From their designs and advancement, it is clear that they are becoming rapidly indifferent than the Russians. Russians never let go of their old designs and 'quantity' instead of gaining quality in military warfare. China, since the year 2000 has gotten away from it.
The fact that China is working on three different Stealth programs, advanced twin engine jets, jet engines, BVR's, Ramjet and Hypersonic technologies (some even in infancy), etc, etc, tells us that they are no longer believing in quantity of crappy equipment (i.e. 2000 mig 21's (F-7's and A-5's) around their coastline).
Now technology is what they are hungry for and they will definitely see success. But note, that the modern air warfare industry in the US really took off after the lessons learned from the Vietnam war. But the Chinese industry really took off around 2000 when they started to test the J-10A.
So you are comparing almost 35 years of work (Vietnam all the way to 2000, when the F-22 was in designs) to 12 years (2000 - J-10's testing till today, 2012). That's a pretty stupid analysis.
But there is a point, within the 12 years of modernization, the Chinese are now working on stuff that the US got to work after 30 - 40 years of R&D and constant upgrades to its jets, engines, avionics, etc. The pioneers always bear the most cost and pain.
The first guy who invents the wheel pays the most in R&D and feels the most pain and THUS, makes the most money. The pioneer's BRAND is well known and established and everyone wants it.
The second and the third person is and will always remain at no: 2 or 3 spot. They may have better products but still....they weren't the pioneers. But they do make money. Similarly, the prioneer is the US and will remain the US. The next number two's and three's are Russia and the Chinese going forward. China will take the number 2 spot. Previously, there were the French, the Israelis, the UK, etc too. But these are much smaller markets. Also, Chinese needs are so massive that for the next decade or so, they can just build and replace their old jets. They don't need to find export customers right this second. But that's just a matter of WHEN not IF.
 
a point from the third party, in some sense, both 2 guys are right, but in some sense, both you guys are wrong.

J-10 is what China did (PAST TENSE) to what American did 40 years ago. Which is a 4th Gen Jet.

The problem is while J-10 is what America did 40 years ago (taking from the point now), it does not represent the Chinese aviation is 40 years behind the United States. Chinese Growth is not linear. They are exponential growth with a rate any country in this world cannot even compare (Not even United States) the fact is, US spend 26 years (First flight to First Flight) to migrate from 4th to 5th gen (F-15 to F-22), but the Chinese only take 13 years (First flight to First flight from J-10 to J-20) you see the different now?

China was 26 years behind US in 1998 (When J-10 first flight), now they are roughtly 15 years behind (compare first flight from J-20 to F-22), generation wise.

As for the quality, i guess no one can say anything solid until the actual finish product is shown

America will still lead the game into 6th Gen, but the game will be starting to get even in 8th Gen if not the 7th, if you look at the growth of China, you can see they cut half what the America did, it will be quite even in 7th gen development and may even surpass the US in 8th Gen aircraft, which is about 40 years from now.
 
a point from the third party, in some sense, both 2 guys are right, but in some sense, both you guys are wrong.

J-10 is what China did (PAST TENSE) to what American did 40 years ago. Which is a 4th Gen Jet.

The problem is while J-10 is what America did 40 years ago (taking from the point now), it does not represent the Chinese aviation is 40 years behind the United States. Chinese Growth is not linear. They are exponential growth with a rate any country in this world cannot even compare (Not even United States) the fact is, US spend 26 years (First flight to First Flight) to migrate from 4th to 5th gen (F-15 to F-22), but the Chinese only take 13 years (First flight to First flight from J-10 to J-20) you see the different now?

China was 26 years behind US in 1998 (When J-10 first flight), now they are roughtly 15 years behind (compare first flight from J-20 to F-22), generation wise.

As for the quality, i guess no one can say anything solid until the actual finish product is shown

America will still lead the game into 6th Gen, but the game will be starting to get even in 8th Gen if not the 7th, if you look at the growth of China, you can see they cut half what the America did, it will be quite even in 7th gen development and may even surpass the US in 8th Gen aircraft, which is about 40 years from now.

I have told people here that Im not comparing industries, Im comparing the level of technology put on the
global buyer market by chinese j-10, and it compares against the US F-35 at the international front. This
was In reply to a bangla member who said china fears tech leaks and thats why doesn't want to sell planes.

Comparing plane's debut flights is not enough either, what about engines? radars? sensor-fusion, etc.

My point was that at the international market, Chinese J-10 is ~40 yrs behind the level of tech offered by
the F-35, which is considered as the benchmark of "today" at the global market.


At the overall industrial development, you are right China is around 20 yrs behind US only.
 
@Geesler - So you really think that the US had a fighter with avionics and missiles comparable to the J-10 in 1972?

Yes. Engine-wise China is probably about 30 years behind US and China has a realistic plan to cut this to around 15-20 years by the end of this decade, but in terms of airframes and avionics they are only around 10-20 years behind.
 
You both make me smile, just not to say laught... 10, 20, 30, 40 years behind or below, this aircraft is that or that stealthy just by the human eyes, TWR higher so it is more advanced...etc.

I just wonder how you guys come up with this kind of none sense conclusion, just because you've read too much magazines?

There is no the most advanced aircraft, there is only the most suitable aircraft and everything around to make it work for a country. Saying this or this aircrfat is xxx years behind one other has absolutly no sense. Giving, come on, ten F-22 to China or India or Pakistan or any other country than the USA, they will never have the same level of performance as in the hand of americans.

The same thing will happen again if Pakistan purchases J-10, or the future Rafale for IAF.

And just taking about Rafale, I remember that a german F-4F "shot down" several times french Rafale in Frisian Flag exercice, and so there is a "Rafale eater" painting on the F-4 since that date.

Now, tell me, my theoreticians, F-4 is how many years behind a Rafale? If we count the maiden flight date, one in 1958, another in 1986, so 28 years behind? If we count the IOC date, F-4 in 1960, Rafale in 2001, 31 years behind? And what about the systems updates? Which version compared to which version? On which basis?

Is that the way you compare?

Just take a simple example - A product has 2 sub-assemblies, one is designed in 2000 and another one in 2001, the whole product rolled out in 2002. Now an another company proposes a same product with exactly the same performance to the market in 2004, one of the sub assemblies is designed in 1998 and the other one in 2003. So, how many years behind? How to compare? On which basis?

And now, what else? Bushing for bushing?

:coffee:
 
I have told people here that Im not comparing industries, Im comparing the level of technology put on the
global buyer market by chinese j-10, and it compares against the US F-35 at the international front. This
was In reply to a bangla member who said china fears tech leaks and thats why doesn't want to sell planes.

Comparing plane's debut flights is not enough either, what about engines? radars? sensor-fusion, etc.

My point was that at the international market, Chinese J-10 is ~40 yrs behind the level of tech offered by
the F-35, which is considered as the benchmark of "today" at the global market.


At the overall industrial development, you are right China is around 20 yrs behind US only.

A moot point. There are different customers with different requirements. China is not offering J-10s( hell did they offer J10 at all as of now?) to the same countries who are buying F-35s. Why will you buy a 4 gen fighter if you can afford 5 gen?

I am amazed(not) that you dont see the logical fallacy here. Recharge your brain before you post again.
 
A moot point. There are different customers with different requirements. China is not offering J-10s( hell did they offer J10 at all as of now?) to the same countries who are buying F-35s. Why will you buy a 4 gen fighter if you can afford 5 gen?

I am amazed(not) that you dont see the logical fallacy here. Recharge your brain before you post again.

Yes J-10 was offered in a competitve bidding v/s MiG-29 to Myanmar Air Force. Which chose the MiG.

Moot point? Alright so why exactly does china need to fear technology leaks when US F-35 which is many
years ahead of J-10 is already there at the global market? Answer that question instead of ranting.
 
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