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Role of Indian Muslims in partition

You do need to tell who were killed. I think you have a totally uninformed view of things, if what your words hint at is true. While I am a firm supporter of your views in general, this post hits a very discordant note.

There are no ways to sugercoat things. History is history and in no way can we held present generation hostage. I am very very clear in that. I know you are from Bengal, but the fact I know is Bengalis were killed by mindless massacres indirectly presided over by Suhrawardy. There were reports ruling Muslim League members were at police control rooms gathering information, while there was report on a police intelligence officer report to the British on the speech done by league leaders on that fateful day. I also know the intelligence officer was later discredited by saying he was Hindu. I read all this very very long back in Oped in The Hindu that I couldn't remember exact dates or names.

I also know Jinnah never in his dreams had thought of the consequences of Direct action day. As for this thread it was about how normal Muslims weren't responsible for partition which is true. It was mainly led by UP elites. But was pointing out that it wasn't the case with respect to Bengal.

The hero of DAD was Suhrawardy not Jinnah. Suhrawardy was well educated.

Dr Arif Siddiqui exposes influence of Jewish and Christian wives on Muslim rulers
By On October 11, 2018, 10:21 PM ISTFeatured News Top Stories

In this video, Dr Arif Siddiqui has exposed Muslim rulers and Jewish influence on them because of their Jewish, Christian and foreigner wives.

He says women have always been used for wealth and power. Hassan-i Sabbah used hashish to enlist the aid of young men into his private army known as assassins (aschishin – or follower of Hassan). They carried out Fedayeen attacks. In the First World War Margarethe better known as Mata Hari, a nude dancer played the role of double agent for France and Germany.

He says Jews have always used the youth and beauty of women for Zionist domination. He cited the examples of Sylvia Raphael the Mossad agent and Victorian nano. He says Jews have always been using wealth and women for accomplishing their plan for greater Israel.

Dr Siddiqui says, Many Muslims rulers were influenced by their Jewish, Christian and foreigner wives and helped in Jewish domination. He gave the example of the former president of Turkey, Mustafa Kamal Ataturk, Iranian monarch Mohammad Reza Pahlavi, former president of Egypt Gamal Abdel Nasser, Iranian Prime Minister Amir Abbas Hoveyda, Emir of Afghanistan Habibullah Khan, Maharaja Bhupinder Singh of Patiala, Nawab Raza Ali Khan of Rampur etc.

He says Jehan Sadat former First lady of Egypt, wife of Anwar Sadat former president of Egypt, was a Jew. Suha Arafat wife of Yasser Arafat was also a Jew woman. She played an effective role in bringing Yasser Arafat close to freemason. Zalmay Mamozy Khalilzad US ambassador to Afghanistan was also the husband of Jewish lady.

Siddiqui further claims many politicians in Pakistan also had foreign or non-Muslim wives. Liaquat Ali Khan’s second wife Rana was Christian before her marriage. Third governor general Ghulam Mohammad has Secretary Ruth Borell. Pakistan’s ex-President Iskandar Mirza’s second wife Naheed Mirza was the wife of Iranian ambassador. Iskandar Mirza belonged to the progeny of Mir Jafar II. 3rd prime minister of Pakistan Mohammad Ali Bogra married Aliya Saadi. 5th prime minister of Pakistan Husseyn Shaheed Suhrawardy supported the stance taken by Israel, France and Britain on the Suez Canal issue instead of supporting Egypt. He was the husband of Vera Alexandrovna a Zionist Russian woman.

7th prime minister Malik Firoz Khan’s wife Viqarunnisa’s name was Victoria. And she was an Australian. A British call girl Christine Keeler admitted her relations with Ex-president Gen. Ayub Khan. Zulfikar Ali Bhutto’s wife Nusrat Asfahani was an Iranian. His son Murtuza Bhutto married Ghinwa Bhutto a Lebanese dancer. Wife of Parvez Musharraf Saheba Musharraf was a Qadiani.


https://archive.siasat.com/news/dr-...sh-and-christian-wives-muslim-rulers-1419246/

I know. Jinnah didn't expect the violence. He expected some civil disobedience movement. But no killings.
 
There are no ways to sugercoat things. History is history and in no way can we held present generation hostage. I am very very clear in that. I know you are from Bengal, but the fact I know is Bengalis were killed by mindless massacres indirectly presided over by Suhrawardy. There were reports ruling Muslim League members were at police control rooms gathering information, while there was report on a police intelligence officer report to the British on the speech done by league leaders on that fateful day. I also know the intelligence officer was later discredited by saying he was Hindu. I read all this very very long back in Oped in The Hindu that I couldn't remember exact dates or names.

No sugarcoating is expected, just the truth. Colouring the truth, in any direction, helps create ill-feeling. In this case, you have covered the truth by omitting to mention what happened on the following two days, after the first.

Unlike you, I do remember exact dates and names, that is, from my reading AND from direct accounts of it by a policeman (at that time posted in Serampore/Srirampur, up the river, but many of whose friends were members of the Calcutta Police).

It is not that I am from Bengal that you need to refer to, it is that I deny that it was a one-sided massacre of Hindus. After Suhrawardy's speech on the Maidan, under what was then the Ochterlony Monument, today the Shaheed Minar, truckloads of arms were distributed to the hoodlums that he and his brother, Hasan, controlled. The first day was one-sided; it was the Hindus at the receiving end. Tuker - Sir Francis Tuker, the local area commander - and his troops were on stand-by but they were never asked to intervene. According to law, troops then and now are NOT allowed to intervene except by request of the civil authority. They were not requested to do so.

There was not a single Muslim League leader in the police control room at Lalbazar other than Suhrawardy himself. He kept coming in and enquiring about the up-to-date status - Lalbazar is about 400 to 500 yards away from Writers Buildings, the main seat of government, and Suhrawardy's office, on a connecting road between the road in front of Writers and what later became Central Avenue, today Chittaranjan Avenue, so coming in frequently was nothing much in terms of distance. I should know - I grew up in one of the rooftop flats on the main building.

The report about the police intelligence officer and Suhrawardy's speech - nobody else of substance spoke that day - is clear and forthright; no need for you or me to fumble around and avoid the issue. It was a speech full of dire warning, that the Muslims had been hard pressed and would not stay idle and quiet any longer.

It was by the evening even that first day that the tide turned. Whatever stories you have heard or read, or the Oped in The Hindu reported is inaccurate if it doesn't reflect this. From the second day onwards into the third day, the Hindus counter-attacked, and, accompanied and aided and abetted by the Sikhs, of whom there was a very large contingent in and around Calcutta in those days and until very recently, perhaps diminishing abruptly in 1984, they went after their tormentors of the first day. At the end of three days, the Muslim League, to its dismay, found that the numbers killed were grievously against them. It was not by any means a one-sided struggle as you narrate.

I am shocked that you should report it the way you did, which is completely inaccurate. It was started by the Muslims, but it was ended by the Hindus and Sikhs together.

Incidentally, right through the second and third days, there was still no request by the government for a flag march. Suhrawardy continued to come into the control room, continued to ask for updates, and the police continued inactive. He saw the results and never again thought that Muslim violence would carry the day. One year later, he was among the first to rally around Gandhi and try to get the murdering to stop, and these murders were not in Calcutta, they were very far away, in that corner of Bengal between Dhaka and Chittagong called Noakhali.

I also know Jinnah never in his dreams had thought of the consequences of Direct action day. As for this thread it was about how normal Muslims weren't responsible for partition which is true. It was mainly led by UP elites. But was pointing out that it wasn't the case with respect to Bengal.



I know. Jinnah didn't expect the violence. He expected some civil disobedience movement. But no killings.
 
No sugarcoating is expected, just the truth. Colouring the truth, in any direction, helps create ill-feeling. In this case, you have covered the truth by omitting to mention what happened on the following two days, after the first.

Unlike you, I do remember exact dates and names, that is, from my reading AND from direct accounts of it by a policeman (at that time posted in Serampore/Srirampur, up the river, but many of whose friends were members of the Calcutta Police).

It is not that I am from Bengal that you need to refer to, it is that I deny that it was a one-sided massacre of Hindus. After Suhrawardy's speech on the Maidan, under what was then the Ochterlony Monument, today the Shaheed Minar, truckloads of arms were distributed to the hoodlums that he and his brother, Hasan, controlled. The first day was one-sided; it was the Hindus at the receiving end. Tuker - Sir Francis Tuker, the local area commander - and his troops were on stand-by but they were never asked to intervene. According to law, troops then and now are NOT allowed to intervene except by request of the civil authority. They were not requested to do so.

There was not a single Muslim League leader in the police control room at Lalbazar other than Suhrawardy himself. He kept coming in and enquiring about the up-to-date status - Lalbazar is about 400 to 500 yards away from Writers Buildings, the main seat of government, and Suhrawardy's office, on a connecting road between the road in front of Writers and what later became Central Avenue, today Chittaranjan Avenue, so coming in frequently was nothing much in terms of distance. I should know - I grew up in one of the rooftop flats on the main building.

The report about the police intelligence officer and Suhrawardy's speech - nobody else of substance spoke that day - is clear and forthright; no need for you or me to fumble around and avoid the issue. It was a speech full of dire warning, that the Muslims had been hard pressed and would not stay idle and quiet any longer.

It was by the evening even that first day that the tide turned. Whatever stories you have heard or read, or the Oped in The Hindu reported is inaccurate if it doesn't reflect this. From the second day onwards into the third day, the Hindus counter-attacked, and, accompanied and aided and abetted by the Sikhs, of whom there was a very large contingent in and around Calcutta in those days and until very recently, perhaps diminishing abruptly in 1984, they went after their tormentors of the first day. At the end of three days, the Muslim League, to its dismay, found that the numbers killed were grievously against them. It was not by any means a one-sided struggle as you narrate.

I am shocked that you should report it the way you did, which is completely inaccurate. It was started by the Muslims, but it was ended by the Hindus and Sikhs together.

Incidentally, right through the second and third days, there was still no request by the government for a flag march. Suhrawardy continued to come into the control room, continued to ask for updates, and the police continued inactive. He saw the results and never again thought that Muslim violence would carry the day. One year later, he was among the first to rally around Gandhi and try to get the murdering to stop, and these murders were not in Calcutta, they were very far away, in that corner of Bengal between Dhaka and Chittagong called Noakhali.

Oh no no. I am not neglecting the violence which happened after the violence which happened after the first day. Even in my initial post I said dad was the precursor to all the violence that was bout to follow the next days or in 47' on either side.

There are reports that after killings started from the Hindu side from the second day afterwards Suhrawardy appeal for army finally started to come in some areas and totally under control by end of third day. The numbers dead also include in people killed in Noakhali as you mentioned and also the violence in Bihar against Muslims who were targetted wrt to Noakholi. As a whole in the next2 months due to direct action day more Muslims were killed. On the first day in due to their League preparation lots of Hindus were killed. And with respect to this thread I was just pointing out uneducated Muslims too wanted an Islamic homeland with league support in Bengal. For me I still couldn't understand the concept of killing the same people who are your compatriots despite having the same culture for centuries.
 
Oh no no. I am not neglecting the violence which happened after the violence which happened after the first day. Even in my initial post I said dad was the precursor to all the violence that was bout to follow the next days or in 47' on either side.

There are reports that after killings started from the Hindu side from the second day afterwards Suhrawardy appeal for army finally started to come in some areas and totally under control by end of third day. The numbers dead also include in people killed in Noakhali as you mentioned and also the violence in Bihar against Muslims who were targetted wrt to Noakholi. As a whole in the next2 months due to direct action day more Muslims were killed. On the first day in due to their League preparation lots of Hindus were killed. And with respect to this thread I was just pointing out uneducated Muslims too wanted an Islamic homeland with league support in Bengal. For me I still couldn't understand the concept of killing the same people who are your compatriots despite having the same culture for centuries.
My sole point in defence (as an undisputed fact) is that after the establishment of universal suffrage, no Pan-Indian Muslim party emerged ever in 70 years, why?
 
Oh no no. I am not neglecting the violence which happened after the violence which happened after the first day. Even in my initial post I said dad was the precursor to all the violence that was bout to follow the next days or in 47' on either side.

There are reports that after killings started from the Hindu side from the second day afterwards Suhrawardy appeal for army finally started to come in some areas and totally under control by end of third day. The numbers dead also include in people killed in Noakhali as you mentioned and also the violence in Bihar against Muslims who were targetted wrt to Noakholi. As a whole in the next2 months due to direct action day more Muslims were killed. On the first day in due to their League preparation lots of Hindus were killed. And with respect to this thread I was just pointing out uneducated Muslims too wanted an Islamic homeland with league support in Bengal. For me I still couldn't understand the concept of killing the same people who are your compatriots despite having the same culture for centuries.

There are certain specifics.

In Calcutta in 1946, the killing started with the hoodlum element; Calcutta politics, in a more general sense, West Bengal politics is inextricably mingled with gang warfare. Examples may help; the hoodlums under the Congress deserted in significant numbers to the CPM after the Congress defeat in 1966, but some were not accommodated. The Left Front and the CPM were still taking a virtuous stand in those early days. These left-out elements then became the knife arm of the Naxalites, thereby hop-scotching their CPM enemies one step to the left. After their defeat, they were left bereft of leadership, until the TMC emerged. Having originally been Congress hoodlums, they found it easy to become TMC hoodlums. Now the CPM hoodlums found themselves isolated. When the BJP took advantage of the accommodative West Bengal culture having allowed large settlements of Biharis (both Hindu and Muslim, mainly originally jute mill workers, afterwards people with no visible source of income) to make a bid for a presence in West Bengal, earlier an unheard of proposition thanks to the CPM, these dispossessed CPM hoodlums shifted to the BJP.

Hoodlums do not articulate party politics. They eliminate their opposite numbers and create local area superiority for the intelligent party cadres to indoctrinate large settled areas, to keep an eye on the electoral tactics of the opposition parties, and, wherever possible, 'manage' the individual booths. So to be a BJP hoodlum today, after having been a CPM hoodlum yester-year, was nothing that a hoodlum would not take nonchalantly in his stride.

In Calcutta in the 1940s, the Suhrawardy brothers, Hasan and Husseyn, were in control of the central Calcutta hoodlum population, centred around the strong element of Muslims in Dharamtollah Street, around the Tipu Sultan Mosque, bounded north and south by the Nakhoda Masjid, the Colootolla Masjid, the Jama Masjid, right out to the Narkeldanga Masjid, and in the south by Noori, Noor, and several others. There are also outliers in Park Circus, Mominpore, Kidderpore and Watgunge. It was this cadre at their disposal that gave them their strength in the street, and it was this strong-arming cadre that led the riots. They never expected the sharp Hindu+Sikh reaction, and, to respond to your surprise, they did not mingle with the local population. These were not Bengali Muslims.

In Noakhali,it was different. There we had Bengali Muslims, but they were different from those elsewhere. There the aggression was led by the heirs of various dargahs, who to this day continue their aggressive policies towards Hindus. In 1947, it was not a single, isolated incident; it was the continuation of a campaign that had lasted decades before that. That makes it all the more miraculous that Gandhi's efforts had any effect whatsoever.

My sole point in defence (as an undisputed fact) is that after the establishment of universal suffrage, no Pan-Indian Muslim party emerged ever in 70 years, why?

They put all their eggs in one basket, the Congress basket, and guarded it. Then in 1984 Rajiv Gandhi arrived, and that trust was lost. Some said it was lost irretrievably. It was not. Now that it is clear that Muslims will be second-class citizens, hewers of wood and drawers of water, under the BJP, sentiment has started shifting back to the Congress.

My sole point in defence (as an undisputed fact) is that after the establishment of universal suffrage, no Pan-Indian Muslim party emerged ever in 70 years, why?

The Muslim vote-bank was a completely synthetic concoction of the politicians that would not stand up to a moment's scrutiny by even an idiot, thereby giving us a yardstick by which to measure the IQ of politicians. Muslims voted exactly as their situational requirements dictated; sometimes, it was for reservations for the children, or job opportunities, sometimes it was the banning of Salman Rushdie or Taslima Nasreen, sometimes it was for or against some half-witted attempt at social engineering by an oversmart political party....the list goes on.
 
My sole point in defence (as an undisputed fact) is that after the establishment of universal suffrage, no Pan-Indian Muslim party emerged ever in 70 years, why?

There is no need to. Muslims need to integrate. Even in states of Kerala and TN where there is less to no discrimination there is ghettosiation of Muslims. Local parties like DMK, Admk, JDS, NCP needs to promote them and are taking care of their interest. But not all demands can be met. Expecting DMK to be supporting triple talaq (my friend was disappointed with DMK for this) is like impossible.

There are certain specifics.

In Calcutta in 1946, the killing started with the hoodlum element; Calcutta politics, in a more general sense, West Bengal politics is inextricably mingled with gang warfare. Examples may help; the hoodlums under the Congress deserted in significant numbers to the CPM after the Congress defeat in 1966, but some were not accommodated. The Left Front and the CPM were still taking a virtuous stand in those early days. These left-out elements then became the knife arm of the Naxalites, thereby hop-scotching their CPM enemies one step to the left. After their defeat, they were left bereft of leadership, until the TMC emerged. Having originally been Congress hoodlums, they found it easy to become TMC hoodlums. Now the CPM hoodlums found themselves isolated. When the BJP took advantage of the accommodative West Bengal culture having allowed large settlements of Biharis (both Hindu and Muslim, mainly originally jute mill workers, afterwards people with no visible source of income) to make a bid for a presence in West Bengal, earlier an unheard of proposition thanks to the CPM, these dispossessed CPM hoodlums shifted to the BJP.

Hoodlums do not articulate party politics. They eliminate their opposite numbers and create local area superiority for the intelligent party cadres to indoctrinate large settled areas, to keep an eye on the electoral tactics of the opposition parties, and, wherever possible, 'manage' the individual booths. So to be a BJP hoodlum today, after having been a CPM hoodlum yester-year, was nothing that a hoodlum would not take nonchalantly in his stride.

In Calcutta in the 1940s, the Suhrawardy brothers, Hasan and Husseyn, were in control of the central Calcutta hoodlum population, centred around the strong element of Muslims in Dharamtollah Street, around the Tipu Sultan Mosque, bounded north and south by the Nakhoda Masjid, the Colootolla Masjid, the Jama Masjid, right out to the Narkeldanga Masjid, and in the south by Noori, Noor, and several others. There are also outliers in Park Circus, Mominpore, Kidderpore and Watgunge. It was this cadre at their disposal that gave them their strength in the street, and it was this strong-arming cadre that led the riots. They never expected the sharp Hindu+Sikh reaction, and, to respond to your surprise, they did not mingle with the local population. These were not Bengali Muslims.

In Noakhali,it was different. There we had Bengali Muslims, but they were different from those elsewhere. There the aggression was led by the heirs of various dargahs, who to this day continue their aggressive policies towards Hindus. In 1947, it was not a single, isolated incident; it was the continuation of a campaign that had lasted decades before that. That makes it all the more miraculous that Gandhi's efforts had any effect whatsoever.



They put all their eggs in one basket, the Congress basket, and guarded it. Then in 1984 Rajiv Gandhi arrived, and that trust was lost. Some said it was lost irretrievably. It was not. Now that it is clear that Muslims will be second-class citizens, hewers of wood and drawers of water, under the BJP, sentiment has started shifting back to the Congress.



The Muslim vote-bank was a completely synthetic concoction of the politicians that would not stand up to a moment's scrutiny by even an idiot, thereby giving us a yardstick by which to measure the IQ of politicians. Muslims voted exactly as their situational requirements dictated; sometimes, it was for reservations for the children, or job opportunities, sometimes it was the banning of Salman Rushdie or Taslima Nasreen, sometimes it was for or against some half-witted attempt at social engineering by an oversmart political party....the list goes on.

I have always wondered how the land of Bengal which led Indian renaissance with leaders like Roy, Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, Bose, Tagore, Ray can be a state beset with violence and petty politics. I assumed it was a result of 30 years of CP rule as the same political violence also engulfed Kerala as well. I guess the curve was flattened.
 
The Muslim vote-bank was a completely synthetic concoction of the politicians that would not stand up to a moment's scrutiny by even an idiot, thereby giving us a yardstick by which to measure the IQ of politicians. Muslims voted exactly as their situational requirements dictated; sometimes, it was for reservations for the children, or job opportunities, sometimes it was the banning of Salman Rushdie or Taslima Nasreen, sometimes it was for or against some half-witted attempt at social engineering by an oversmart political party....the list goes on.
When did Muslim fought against marginalisation as in an election cycle?
There is no need to. Muslims need to integrate. Even in states of Kerala and TN where there is less to no discrimination there is ghettosiation of Muslims. Local parties like DMK, Admk, JDS, NCP needs to promote them and are taking care of their interest. But not all demands can be met. Expecting DMK to be supporting triple talaq (my friend was disappointed with DMK for this) is like impossible.
There's no need to; I agree. The way forward (imo) is the subaltern way by dismantling the older elite structures that had played role(s) in religious consolidation(s). My point was if Muslim League had a solid support structure in the masses then it would have remain functional at least to a reduced degree after 15th August 1947 but it did not happen??
 
I have always wondered how the land of Bengal which led Indian renaissance with leaders like Roy, Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, Bose, Tagore, Ray can be a state beset with violence and petty politics.

If there is cream at the top doesnt mean the milk is not burned at the bottom.
 
There is no need to. Muslims need to integrate. Even in states of Kerala and TN where there is less to no discrimination there is ghettosiation of Muslims. Local parties like DMK, Admk, JDS, NCP needs to promote them and are taking care of their interest. But not all demands can be met. Expecting DMK to be supporting triple talaq (my friend was disappointed with DMK for this) is like impossible.



I have always wondered how the land of Bengal which led Indian renaissance with leaders like Roy, Paramahamsa, Vivekananda, Bose, Tagore, Ray can be a state beset with violence and petty politics. I assumed it was a result of 30 years of CP rule as the same political violence also engulfed Kerala as well. I guess the curve was flattened.

Just as there is nothing universal and homogeneous called a Muslim, there is nothing called a Bengali. Let us take your examples one at a time.

Raja RamMohun Roy was an orthodox Brahmin when he started. He was one of the first to possess equal facility in Persian, the official language all over India, including in the John Company ruled areas, until 1832. He soon found himself shifting rapidly more and more towards a progressive stance, and was one of those who fought for a law to outlaw suttee. A law that Lord Bentinck got enacted. He was a friend of Iswar Chandra Vidyasagar, again an orthodox 'tufted' Brahmin of a phenomenal intellect, and of Prince Dwarkanath Tagore's son, the religious minded and withdrawn Debendranath Tagore, father of Rabindranath. Again a Brahmin, albeit one with a whiff of sulphur about the family.

Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was a mystic, and a Brahmin priest at the temple of Dakshineswar, built by the masterful Rani Rashmoni. He was lost in his contemplation of the divine, and was a humble, cheerful soul, who couldn't care less about orthodox opinion. Many of the strongest views on the one-ness of the divine come from him.

Swami Vivekananda was a robust, no-nonsense Kayastha, with a promising clerkship in a leading Calcutta firm of solicitors, who fell under the spell of Ramakrishna and suffered a complete transformation to a monk of forceful, outgoing attitude and a Vedantist outlook (meaning that much of his theology was determined by the Vedantas). He spoke well and had charisma, and was the first of the mega-Sadhus to attract the western world. The firm he clerked for still exists, and refuses to charge fees for any work related to their long-ago employee.

Rabindranath Tagore belonged to the break-away Brahmo Samaj, that did not consider itself to be part of the Hindu religion, and was an extraordinary genius - the one in this whole list that truly deserves that label. He was descended from an illustrious family, and he was the last of the transition from merchant and entrepreneur Bengali to landlord and clerical Bengali.

Subhash Chandra Bose was again from a very prominent Kayastha family of professionals, and excelled in all directions in all respects. There was that tinge of scandal about him due to the Oaten Case, but it was a case from Scots Law - not proven. He had a virile personality, but also had a weakness for tight-fitting militarist clothing. The best way to think of him is as a larger-than-life personality who failed in his mission, fortunately both for his reputation and for his country.

Satyajit Ray was again one of those polished, very well-educated Brahmos who dominated Bengali cultural life in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. He did well at everything creative, composing music, making sketches and playing a significant role in the advertising agency where he worked. Nothing needs to be said about his films.

Can you find a pattern in this, or a mould? I couldn't.


When did Muslim fought against marginalisation as in an election cycle?

There's no need to; I agree. The way forward (imo) is the subaltern way by dismantling the older elite structures that had played role(s) in religious consolidation(s). My point was if Muslim League had a solid support structure in the masses then it would have remain functional at least to a reduced degree after 15th August 1947 but it did not happen??
 
When did Muslim fought against marginalisation as in an election cycle?

There's no need to; I agree. The way forward (imo) is the subaltern way by dismantling the older elite structures that had played role(s) in religious consolidation(s). My point was if Muslim League had a solid support structure in the masses then it would have remain functional at least to a reduced degree after 15th August 1947 but it did not happen??

I would also say Muslims have lost a chance to be not a part of BJP. BJP is not going to go anywhere. They had a great chance during ABV reign. But going with the lot against the BJP has not proved beneficial for the community with the party now deciding they can win without Muslim votes.
Take the states of NE, Goa or even Kerala for example. In central states where it vehemently opposes cow slaughter in the state's I mentioned it's forced to accept beef as a cuisine. Reason is Christians are a large part of BJP in NE and Goa. Muslims who join the party are ostracized by their own community. That should change. When Muslims form a significant part of the party you will see the change in BJP's motormouths leaders attitude. Again the hardcore RW will be displeased with the BJP decision, but what option do they have?
 
I would also say Muslims have lost a chance to be not a part of BJP. BJP is not going to go anywhere. They had a great chance during ABV reign. But going with the lot against the BJP has not proved beneficial for the community with the party now deciding they can win without Muslim votes.
Take the states of NE, Goa or even Kerala for example. In central states where it vehemently opposes cow slaughter in the state's I mentioned it's forced to accept beef as a cuisine. Reason is Christians are a large part of BJP in NE and Goa. Muslims who join the party are ostracized by their own community. That should change. When Muslims form a significant part of the party you will see the change in BJP's motormouths leaders attitude. Again the hardcore RW will be displeased with the BJP decision, but what option do they have?
Equivalence of Muslim and Christian is false here, Modi didn't commit a Christian pogrom for one.
 
Equivalence of Muslim and Christian is false here, Modi didn't commit a Christian pogrom for one.

Even before the pogrom there was no Muslim support for the BJP. They Ganged up against anyone who was against BJP. Even before 2002, or 91' there were quite a few pogroms which escapes scrutiny cos there was no media or BJP back then. But still Muslims stuck to Congress even when their leaders were responsible for the riots.
The thing is you can't hold onto the pasts. BJP has some core demands. Like Ayodhya or UCC or now Varanasi. Unlike Congress duplicity of playing both sides they are clear in what they want. If the community wants to be taken seriously then it needs to be a part of ruling coalition. When it has enough Muslims on board, it would be very very tough to instigate riots on local level.
 
I would also say Muslims have lost a chance to be not a part of BJP. BJP is not going to go anywhere. They had a great chance during ABV reign. But going with the lot against the BJP has not proved beneficial for the community with the party now deciding they can win without Muslim votes.
Take the states of NE, Goa or even Kerala for example. In central states where it vehemently opposes cow slaughter in the state's I mentioned it's forced to accept beef as a cuisine. Reason is Christians are a large part of BJP in NE and Goa. Muslims who join the party are ostracized by their own community. That should change. When Muslims form a significant part of the party you will see the change in BJP's motormouths leaders attitude. Again the hardcore RW will be displeased with the BJP decision, but what option do they have?
Yeah yeah.

Muslims can coexist too.

They will only have to convert to 5000 year young way of life.

:tup:
 
Even before the pogrom there was no Muslim support for the BJP. They Ganged up against anyone who was against BJP. Even before 2002, or 91' there were quite a few pogroms which escapes scrutiny cos there was no media or BJP back then. But still Muslims stuck to Congress even when their leaders were responsible for the riots.
The thing is you can't hold onto the pasts. BJP has some core demands. Like Ayodhya or UCC or now Varanasi. Unlike Congress duplicity of playing both sides they are clear in what they want. If the community wants to be taken seriously then it needs to be a part of ruling coalition. When it has enough Muslims on board, it would be very very tough to instigate riots on local level.
RSS and it's affiliates were always involved in every riot, from 1969 Gujarat riots to Nellie massacre to Bhaghalpura, how do you counter that?
 
RSS and it's affiliates were always involved in every riot, from 1969 Gujarat riots to Nellie massacre to Bhaghalpura, how do you counter that?

Rss had no hand in Nellie massacre. While for the other hands of Sangh Parivars like VHP and Bajrang Dal they have to give answers. They had their hand by defending them and probably was involved in some other riots in india but it's just my point of view and thought.
 
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