Reorientation And Restructuring of Pakistan Army

[Donatello]

Army is not going to leave it's luxuries. I mean the Generals drive around in all sorts of expensive cars...on state's money. What do you expect of them? They join army to make money not defend the country.


The golf thing is so true man. I have played with so many of them and people uptil the rank of Brigadier are not even good Golfers. They just come for some butt kissing etc.....sir sir sir......when you beat them, their ego can't take the shock that they just lost......

 

[laiqs@mi]

Army is not going to leave it's luxuries. I mean the Generals drive around in all sorts of expensive cars...on state's money. What do you expect of them? They join army to make money not defend the country.

and that is the point where the downfall starts.

 

[fatman17]

^dear sirs - either you 'debate' the pros and cons of the thread which wld be fine and pl leave your 'personal tantrums' aside.

all generals of all armies enjoy perks, CEO's of international banks earn 'windfall' bonuses even when their companies go bankrupt so pl no rigtheous sermons!

 

[Jango]

The Officer from EME corps, is definitely on a different educational level than the Infantry guy. It is a fact. But that is at a lower level. When you complete Staff college, NDU, and all these courses, you are regarded as well educated in the military ranks.

 

[VCheng]

I have a serious question for this important discussion: What is the difference between education and indoctrination as far as a military mind is concerned? Exactly what do the Staff College courses and promotions impart?

 

[Jango]

delet this post.

 

[Irfan Baloch]

A case for Total Reorientation And Restructuring of the Pakistan*Army

By:*Yasub Ali Dogar Brigadier(Rtd.)A case for Total Reorientation And Restructuring of the Pakistan Army « Pakpotpourri2's Blog

Corruption:* There have been reports of corruption at higher level without any accountability e.g. the NLC scandal. It is clear that a corrupt leadership cannot lead*troops in the field to give the supreme sacrifice of their lives.

Thanks for stating the blindingly obvious

Operational Commands:* The corps, divisions or brigades should not have any station or administrative responsibilities. They should just concentrate on their operational roles. All other aspects may be looked after by other organizations/HQs within the Pak Army.

What other HQs? That defeats the exercise if “other HQs” are also part of the army. Also that will create unnecessary red tap and delay actions as the approvals would have to come from Rawalpindi instead of the Local HQ. instead of delegating the authority and decentralising the admin duties, the author is suggesting a tall structure that will only increase the number of more admin staff at GHQ which defeats the whole idea.

******I got commission in 1965 soon after the 1965 war, at that time the brigade, division and the corps commanders had no responsibility other than the operational one or to look after the welfare of troops under command.

Housing, schooling and ensuring other civic facilities are part of providing the troops welfare. Unless if the good brigadier is suggesting air dropping rations on the troops in the fields while their families wait in anticipation in the trenches.

***In short the corps/division commanders are doing most of the above tasks at the cost of their own primary responsibilities of keeping their commands operationally sound. This unfortunate trend to get involved in non-operational matters finally led to failures like the Abbottabad incident.

that was intelligence failure, how an infantry or artillery corps,/Div commander could have discovered the shady resident of a particular house in Abbotabad through its routine operational exercises is beyond me unless if the Brigadier is suggesting raiding private residences in the vicinity as a part of operational preparedness.

Restructuring of the Army:**Over a period of time the Pakistan Army has become too big for peace time and too small for a war with our main adversary. We need to find our solution in a military system like that of Switzerland, Sweden or Israel. The size of the Army can be safely reduced by 25% by adopting a hybrid system of mobilization suited for our requirements.

The bold statement is suggesting a 2 eventualities that are mutually exclusive. If a force is too small for war time (with our primary adversary) then it cant be too big during peace time, it can be either adequate or still small and cant be too big (unless the person deciding that is retarded).

Author hasn’t explained what Swiss or Israeli model he is suggesting to adopt to overcome the situation if it’s the compulsory military service for every citizen then that again goes against the lean mean fighting machine mantra, adds costs and in the end creates partisan militia that is likely to tumble and flee in the face of heavy exploding ordinance and wont be better than manning ration depots or preventing looting or panic and providing relief works in the cities and away from the front lines. no paramilitary force with only few months of training a year of once in a life time can be a substitute for modern days soldier than is not just brandishing an assault rifle but also engaged in complex manoeuvring, using modern weapons and remaining steady and focused in the fog of war, confusion and chaos. Janbaz, Levis and Khasadars exist but are only good for peacekeeping and relief duties. They can bolster the numbers of the regular troops but cant be a replacement due to lack of training and standards compared to regular troops.

In certain sectors the Division HQs may be reduced to the level of a Tactical Headquarters and huge paraphernalia of administrative services saved or merged in Logistics/Sub Areas. It is understood that France, Italy and even Turkey have removed one of the echelons i.e. either Brigade or Division HQ. I suggest merging the Corps HQs and Division HQs.

Ok, point noted. But that should be peace time setting with a flexibility to adapt in case of hostilities, the structuring shouldn’t be at the expense of delays in communications and situational awareness both at tactical and operational level.

The concept of a pentangular organizational structure may be examined for adoption in the Army instead of the present triangular one. This entails having five brigade groups of five battalions each. Lahore/Sialkot Corps areas can be looked after by one such Combat HQ each. The strength ratios for other sectors can be worked out separately. There is no requirement for a division HQ in such a setup. The pentangular organizational structure is already in place to an extent in 10 Corps.

Cadrize one battalion in each brigade within holding divisions. Cadre. Cadrize the fourth infantry company in a Battalion. Even the last bastion of the British orthodoxy, the British Army has only three infantry companies in a battalion now.

interesting concept but needs further explaining. The main theme remains around culling the local HQ and increasing the layers between decision making.

not entirely sure if I follow the author in the second paragraph unless if he is suggesting a “trimmed” battalions bunched together in 5s will be a part of each brigade that in tern will be a part of 5 brigade bunch to form a pentagon (pentangular structure as brigadier puts it) that will be directly commanded by Corps HQ, making the position of GOC redundant, the premise here is that the Corps HQ is on its toes all the time to ensure that the brigades are able to manoeuvre and communicate the ever changing battlefield without delay and confusion.

Maximum manpower of Army, Navy and PAF should be converted into teeth. Israeli Army IDF’ ratio may be taken as an example. It is felt that we have a very heavy tail employing a large number of officers and men on administrative tasks at the cost denuding these resources from operational tasks.
The large Army in waiting for a war in EME, S & T, and Medical units may be reduced…..

Agreed.

GHQ:**It should be right sized, 50% officers and staff should be cut down to be employed the field areas. Over a period of time it has become a dumping place for officers wanting to settle down in Rawalpindi/Islamabad area. A lean and thin organization will always produce better results that a overstaffed one and at the same time not suffer from confusion created by too many officials.

yes it should, but with more burden due to proposed elimination Div and/or Corps HQs it will be under far more pressure & burden to decide upon tactical and operational matters that were being done by a local general.

The ISI:**It also needs to be reduced to a size where quality and efficiency should be criteria for stay. It should not become a repository of officers waiting to serve in Islamabad & Rawalpindi .

Yea you said it already brigadier, no need to repeat a passing judgement.

Federal Security Force (FSF):** It was raised by the late Prime Minister of Pakistan Zulfiqar Ali Bhutto in early seventies but was disbanded by the Martial Law regime of General Zia-ul-Haq in 1977 being considered as forces countering the Army. Such a force maybe re-raised to take the burden of internal security from the Army and the CAF’s.

indeed it was, that’s how ZAB sold it. Existing Rangers, FC and Janbaz force can do the similar job instead of raising yet another organisation and causing possible confusion and complexity, its better to train and equip the existing paramilitary forces to perform the purposed job.

More later.

 

[Battle Axe]

A really nice write up though I shall not encourage the idea of pentagular setup. The present Corp-Div-Bde chain of command was based on lessons we learnt in the 65 & 71 war and is effective.

Rest of the ideas are very productive & PA has been moving in on those, I personally know of detailed studies going on, with respect to amalgamation of training centres and more...

 

[F.O.X]

and that is the point where the downfall starts.
i dont exactly remember but it was said
when Generals enjoy luxries they are not able to fight. (dont remember exact words)context
and Salahuddin ayoubi said once
if you want to break a nation just give army the rule.
we are exercising it again and again. we have seen the results even.
and when ever army comes to rule they know what luxries are what money is .

you can tolerate corrupt scums like politicians who Ride in Expensive bullet proof cars , have 3 foreign tours each month , spend millions on a damn headache medicine , who squeeze this country out of every penny , & have an IQ of Child & still at the end of they day They do NOTHING for this country .

on the other hand you cannot tolerate an Army General who has spent his life in protecting this country , who are probably last line of defense before these politicians put a final stake , who actually do something for this country , in the Time of need they are always present in country doing whatever they can to help its people not like s a certain someone who did not even know that half of this country was flooded , at every crisis you look at Army , you want them to just stay at borders & yet at every crises you look towards them for help. but still Army is bad & democracy(with current politicians is Good) .
Some times i do think that we deserve what we are getting , we have never learned to Appreciated what is in front of us until it is lost .

 

[MastanKhan]

TK,

Indeed that is the way to move forward---as it happens in every cultrure---the coming generations are more 'equality conscious' and the same shows in the make up of pak millitary as well---. Seems like the last 12---14 years have brought out a tremendous change in the personal relation between a soldier and his officer---.

Combat does strange things to people as to how they interact amongst each other when lives are dependant on the participation of every single member of the team.

 

[laiqs@mi]

you can tolerate corrupt scums like politicians who Ride in Expensive bullet proof cars , have 3 foreign tours each month , spend millions on a damn headache medicine , who squeeze this country out of every penny , & have an IQ of Child & still at the end of they day They do NOTHING for this country .

on the other hand you cannot tolerate an Army General who has spent his life in protecting this country , who are probably last line of defense before these politicians put a final stake , who actually do something for this country , in the Time of need they are always present in country doing whatever they can to help its people not like s a certain someone who did not even know that half of this country was flooded , at every crisis you look at Army , you want them to just stay at borders & yet at every crises you look towards them for help. but still Army is bad & democracy(with current politicians is Good) .
Some times i do think that we deserve what we are getting , we have never learned to Appreciated what is in front of us until it is lost .

this may go of topic as fatman17 sir mentioned after that i never posted because i have less knoledge in this subject.
but as for your logic I can tolerate curropt politicians ???? nah if i am given the chance none of them survive an hour on this Pak nation.

and the bolded part is debatable.

 

[F.O.X]

this may go of topic as fatman17 sir mentioned after that i never posted because i have less knoledge in this subject.
but as for your logic I can tolerate curropt politicians ???? nah if i am given the chance none of them survive an hour on this Pak nation.

I was talking about Pakistan public in general , but lets just leave it to that ^_^

 

[SQ8]

you can tolerate corrupt scums like politicians who Ride in Expensive bullet proof cars , have 3 foreign tours each month , spend millions on a damn headache medicine , who squeeze this country out of every penny , & have an IQ of Child & still at the end of they day They do NOTHING for this country .

on the other hand you cannot tolerate an Army General who has spent his life in protecting this country , who are probably last line of defense before these politicians put a final stake , who actually do something for this country , in the Time of need they are always present in country doing whatever they can to help its people not like s a certain someone who did not even know that half of this country was flooded , at every crisis you look at Army , you want them to just stay at borders & yet at every crises you look towards them for help. but still Army is bad & democracy(with current politicians is Good) .
Some times i do think that we deserve what we are getting , we have never learned to Appreciated what is in front of us until it is lost .

Then how come they tolerate those lazy, bum good for nothing politicians.. and keep making deals with them??

 

[Jango]

A glaring example of a cantt being over whelmingly used for commercial activities is Walton Cantt. The place is practically all sold out for commercial purposes.

 

[VCheng]

A glaring example of a cantt being over whelmingly used for commercial activities is Walton Cantt. The place is practically all sold out for commercial purposes.

Oh, that is all to ensure "welfare of the troops and their families" as has already been stated above.