Rafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat

[SR-91]

A major problem with any Indian thread is perfectly reflected by your post.

it's like to claim that

" because the suns shine with green lights when they arise from the South, it must because they are larger than the planet Earth which is of course the only one in the galaxy without a moon and with 2 legs."

you now know why?

With wild claims like that, many Indians seem to be intellectually disturbed enough to be able to manage to pack 4 lies and 3 logical fallacies into 1 short sentence to start with, and be happy about it.

Nuff said.

Its only 4pm in Europe and u hitting that tequila really hard.

 

[Stephen Cohen]

I thunk that's the lesson we learned from mki and mig 21.

So do you mean that we are trying to get a much better deal than the
current MKI contract where by everything will be Dassault's responsibility

Then what exactly will be HAL responsible for

 

[gslv mk3]

Do you think the Frenchies must also have IQ of 81? Dassault wouldn't dare to be responsible for any Indian-assembled indigenous toilet to be honest let alone planes.

@Oscar @Chak Bamu

 

[SR-91]

@sancho @DrSomnath999 @Abingdonboy

The responsibility must be shared between Dassault and HAL
to the EXTENT of the components produced by them

Why will Dassault take responsibility for components and parts produced by HAL

Dassault has produced these parts and dassault is responsible to transfer these new technologies to Indian vendors. India is ensuring Dassault is responsible for full technology transfer/Quality and reliability, its as simple as that.

 

[Speeder 2]

Dassault has produced these parts and dassault is responsible to transfer these new technologies to Indian vendors. India is ensuring Dassault is responsible for full technology transfer/Quality and reliability, its as simple as that.

yeah right, when you buy 130 BMW autos, you want to ensure the factory send all design papers, tech knowhow, all toolings, all machines together with personal trainging with complete quality and reliability besides the autos, yeah? BMW, along with Dassault, would be better file for bankcrupcy directly instead.

 

[SpArK]

Second best choice of mine.

 

[Donatello]

@Chinese-Dragon
hi my dear chinese friend!

What actually makes you think russian jets are "efficient"- if efficient means - using optimum fuel and optimal cost/sortie then i am afraid Russian jets are no where close to being called "efficient"! I am making such a claim because i happen to have interacted with a couple of research engineers in seminars and heard pilots speak out openly!



I beg to differ, It is indeed a great deal to file as many patents as you can- for the number of patents actually determine the "innovativeness" of any industry- mind if i tell you i had a whole freaking subject dedicated to IPRs and patents in my 6th semester back in my college(they even taught us how to file patents and the legal nitty grities)! you see,you and me are no one to judge the "industrial applicability" of an "idea" or concept- let the industry decide! I dont think chinese are really crazy to file SO MANY patents every year- ZTE alone files 2700 patents!



@Donatello

hi, again, two of your sentences are inconsistent(one is correct and the other is false)- yes india does produce more number of engineers(graduates) than western countries but not the Phds- india roughly produces 11,000-12,000 Phds(2014 data) whereas US produces nothing less than 30,000 and china a massive 50,000(so chinese are actually 4 times ahead of us in numbers) .
Another thing i would like to point out that quality of all the indian engineers is not same- IITs/NITs/BITs occupy the top end of spectrum - i am sure you'd have heard of ruthless IIT-JEE? believe me the competition in IITs is far more cut throat than anything else on this planet!
As for the quality of research is concerned it is gauged by "citation factor"/"impact factor" and it'll come to you as a surprise that the quality(citation factor) of indian journals in certain fields is higher than their chinese counterparts!

i will end up my argument by saying- either french part away with each and every IPR they created for rafale - 100% transfer or bear the responsibilities- i rest my case!

Now you are drifting away.....how about i tell you an IIT Graduate (married to an IITian as well), with a Post Grad qualification came to the same uni i was in the UK, for his PhD? He was my lab demonstrator, and since we spoke the same dialect, i had a great deal of conversations with him......While IITs are good....they are no where near the top end of the world.....even a Middle ranked uni in UK/USA will beat them hands down in terms of research impact........trust me....there are tons of papers for big journals being published in Pakistan, half of them are garbage.........Good research has its impact on the society......for a nation the size of India....it is shamefully low....same for the Chinese.

I believe you have not studied outside of India? Well, i have .....and all Post graduate courses on subjects like electronics/photonics/power systems/semiconductors have a very high ratio of Chinese and Indian students in them compared to the locals....do you know why? Because the universities are good and the students think so. No body dishes thousands of dollars or GBP on their kids education if they can get the same value in India. Research in the west is measured by it's impact on the society....not how many patents were filed. There is tons of literature available for free on that....

I really hope you understand why all the top laurels in science and engineering are skewed very very heavily in the favor of the west or the far east (in some cases).......no it is not because of patents but the whole impact.
Before you judge me........i'll tell you...my undergrad thesis was under the supervision of a brilliant English scientist who was working for the Euro Seventh Framework project of which there is absolutely no equivalent of that in the Indian or Chinese Academia....we know why...... Because we had access to all the journals and peer reviewed research coming out from the top 'IITs' etc.....
Here is the link to their site.......10.8 billion Euros of pure freaking research funding.......and this is just one section of their R&D expenditure.....

Home page - FP7 - Research - Europa

Now as you will see on that page.....patents is not the purpose of research and innovation....but the wider impact.

Again, it was off topic, but i needed to tell that patents IS NOT A QUALITY measurement and makes absolutely no sense in the Rafale deal negotiations.

 

[asquare]

Now you are drifting away.....how about i tell you an IIT Graduate (married to an IITian as well), with a Post Grad qualification came to the same uni i was in the UK, for his PhD? He was my lab demonstrator, and since we spoke the same dialect, i had a great deal of conversations with him......While IITs are good....they are no where near the top end of the world.....even a Middle ranked uni in UK/USA will beat them hands down in terms of research impact........trust me....there are tons of papers for big journals being published in Pakistan, half of them are garbage.........Good research has its impact on the society......for a nation the size of India....it is shamefully low....same for the Chinese.

I believe you have not studied outside of India? Well, i have .....and all Post graduate courses on subjects like electronics/photonics/power systems/semiconductors have a very high ratio of Chinese and Indian students in them compared to the locals....do you know why? Because the universities are good and the students think so. No body dishes thousands of dollars or GBP on their kids education if they can get the same value in India. Research in the west is measured by it's impact on the society....not how many patents were filed. There is tons of literature available for free on that.......

Given that this is the only part of the thread that I am qualified to comment on, let me add my bit. You're absolutely right about IITs, NITs etc not being up to the quality of mid tier US/UK universities. Unfortunately, in India, we tend to confuse the difficulty of getting admission with the value added by a university. My organisation is involved in a several hundred million dollar program to improve technical education. The NITs are part of this. No matter how you look at it- from research to employability of graduates, the NITs are very poor by international standards.

Most NIT graduates don't even work as engineers for more than a couple of years. They use the fact that they passed the entrance exam (which is a reasonable signal of the fact that they are intelligent and very hard working) to get entry level managerial roles in corporates (or do MBAs).

 

[PoKeMon]

Now you are drifting away.....how about i tell you an IIT Graduate (married to an IITian as well), with a Post Grad qualification came to the same uni i was in the UK, for his PhD? He was my lab demonstrator, and since we spoke the same dialect, i had a great deal of conversations with him......While IITs are good....they are no where near the top end of the world.....even a Middle ranked uni in UK/USA will beat them hands down in terms of research impact........trust me....there are tons of papers for big journals being published in Pakistan, half of them are garbage.........Good research has its impact on the society......for a nation the size of India....it is shamefully low....same for the Chinese.

I believe you have not studied outside of India? Well, i have .....and all Post graduate courses on subjects like electronics/photonics/power systems/semiconductors have a very high ratio of Chinese and Indian students in them compared to the locals....do you know why? Because the universities are good and the students think so. No body dishes thousands of dollars or GBP on their kids education if they can get the same value in India. Research in the west is measured by it's impact on the society....not how many patents were filed. There is tons of literature available for free on that....

I really hope you understand why all the top laurels in science and engineering are skewed very very heavily in the favor of the west or the far east (in some cases).......no it is not because of patents but the whole impact.
Before you judge me........i'll tell you...my undergrad thesis was under the supervision of a brilliant English scientist who was working for the Euro Seventh Framework project of which there is absolutely no equivalent of that in the Indian or Chinese Academia....we know why...... Because we had access to all the journals and peer reviewed research coming out from the top 'IITs' etc.....
Here is the link to their site.......10.8 billion Euros of pure freaking research funding.......and this is just one section of their R&D expenditure.....

Home page - FP7 - Research - Europa

Now as you will see on that page.....patents is not the purpose of research and innovation....but the wider impact.

Again, it was off topic, but i needed to tell that patents IS NOT A QUALITY measurement and makes absolutely no sense in the Rafale deal negotiations.

There is a difference in quality of institute and difficulty to get into one.

IIT may not be the best of all, but surely tougher to get into.

And regarding Rafale deal, the onus of 108 fighter's quality is being put onto Rafale is simply for the reason that Rafale, at any point, dont lack in proper ToT and quality framework. It has been the case in past where vendor has overcharged or created extra costs for something necessary(shrewdly hidden at negotiations). Bu putting the onus completely on them, India is just confirming that we are getting everything required from Dassault to build fighters in India.

What Dassault have to do -

1- Assure complete ToT.
2- Assure quality control.

Whats there to hide and shy from?

 

[amardeep mishra]

how about i tell you an IIT Graduate (married to an IITian as well), with a Post Grad qualification came to the same uni i was in the UK, for his PhD? He was my lab demonstrator, and since we spoke the same dialect, i had a great deal of conversations with him......While IITs are good....they are no where near the top end of the world.....even a Middle ranked uni in UK/USA will beat them hands down in terms of research impact

Hi!
Was your demonstrator a btech or Mtech from IIT?normally the Btechs of IITs are far more capable in their streams than the Mtechs ,so before you form any opinion please confirm.
Secondly,i said,the level of competition is higher than those of american univs- what i was alluding to was the kind and complexity of tests they have to undergo to get into IITs- i know the research trend of american univs is certainly better than that of IITs- but then again a lot of researchers in those westerns univs are direct products of IIT

Secondly,oh yes,patent does show the "innovativeness" of the industry- i fail to understand as to why you dont agree,either way, it is the patents that actually earn revenues to an industry

 

[greatone]

Hi @Donatello

This is something beyond my actual interest yet i would like to shed some more light on this one- Your proposition that How can dassault be held responsible for 108 jets manufactured in india- it is not entirely correct, here are a few reasons -
1) Remember there will be a lot of critical technologies that french wont be parting away - HAL or indian MoD cant expect the french to part away with each and every tech they used or patented in rafale project. Now here starts the trouble- it has been observed,via various projects that the OEMs of these "Critical sub-systems" increase the price mid way during the life cycle of the product or even worse twist the arm of indian r&d labs to their tunes- Scorpene project where india is license producing 6 subs bears testimony to that fact!- So yes,either they PART AWAY with each and every single patent or bear the responsibility

2) your second point regarding HAL being an assembler is not entirely correct- while i agree- itz major source of revenue comes from license production of foreign designed products. However HAL is gradually changing that perception by creating a knowledge based eco-system conducive for aerospace research and that is by filing a lot of PATENTS every year- last year alone they filed 400-430 patents while this year this number is expected to be in the range 450-470!- You must also bear it in mind that HAL's primary responsibility was never to heavily involve itself in research- that was the job of ADA/NAL(ADA is a consortium of DRDO while NAL is a top aerospace lab of CSIR). Yet HAL is filing patent to the tunes of 450 per year does tell a very different story!

Leave him be, most of the time he has no idea what he is talking about or from which hole...

 

[Donatello]

There is a difference in quality of institute and difficulty to get into one.

IIT may not be the best of all, but surely tougher to get into.

And regarding Rafale deal, the onus of 108 fighter's quality is being put onto Rafale is simply for the reason that Rafale, at any point, dont lack in proper ToT and quality framework. It has been the case in past where vendor has overcharged or created extra costs for something necessary(shrewdly hidden at negotiations). Bu putting the onus completely on them, India is just confirming that we are getting everything required from Dassault to build fighters in India.

What Dassault have to do -

1- Assure complete ToT.
2- Assure quality control.

Whats there to hide and shy from?

Nothing, except that if Dassault has to watch over every single nut and bolt...then India is really not getting the idea of ToT......and not learning anything.

Let's take an example....a more plausible one.......HAL starts assembling the aircraft from knock down kits.....the final product is handed to IAF and flies....due to some mishap the plane crashes injuring the pilot....so naturally India opens up an inquiry... and finds out that there was some manufacturing issue......meanwhile the fleet is grounded and HAL told to stop work....Dassault is in a serious shyt since they were supplying parts they have already paid their suppliers for the parts....which are now sitting idle.....India seeks compensation and thus stops the transfer of funds........Dassault ends up with a shaft.............so........unless India says it will make full payment in advance....why would Dassault risk it's finances and repute for future? Since this MMRCA contract will run 6-8 years i suppose. That is a lot of time.....lot of time for things to go wrong. It happens all over the world.

Akber Al Baker of Qatar Airways refused the acceptance of their first A380 from Airbus because the genius found that there were issues with the carpet in the galley and some paint defects.........causing Airbus to panic .....and it's shares tumbling in the market....with a negative repute.

 

[My-Analogous]

Even the C-130s purchased by India were under the clause that Indians will not construct the hangers or touch the aircraft for any kind of modifications or servicing failing which the warranty of the aircraft will be null and void. The hangers built at the home base of the Hercules are state of the art and totally US built. Save for the crash due to pilot error in which one C130 was lost, the aircrafts are performing quite commendably. On the other hand, there was an incident where in the IL-78 was stripped of its storage tanks for emergency load carrying, The Indian expertise was highlighted by an incident where in the stripped aircraft, once refitted with its storage tank and refueling pods, landed back at the home base with the lower deck full of leaking aviation fuel. The aircraft luckily was undamaged. This "jugaad" attitude does us in. In such a scenario, how can a foreign vendor be responsible for an equipment being made by India totally. There are numerous examples wherein the Indian PSUs charged with license assembly and production of equipment have botched the QR of the equipment resulting in loss of lives and crucial equipment. Recently, SU-30MKI was grounded, and the media immediately drew parallel to the Mig - 21s. Russia was not called for technical investigation due to the fact that the fault lay with Indian side and not Russia.



Wrong. It is that India can afford to play out, we have the economic capability and also ... the stupidity of ours which delays whatever is essential for the country .... we are in no great hurry for the aircraft. You forget that national security is the least of our concerns. We are still not out of our la la land of being peaceful etc etc. But on a serious note, it is a case wherein the Dassault loses out if it does not fall in line as the European economy (of France too) is not in much of a shape. The latest Ukrainian crisis has allowed India an additional Ace in its pack. Russian economy is struggling and like the 90s, India is in the best position to help it out (be patronizing their defence industries; they can ill afford to irritate India with awry and tardy delivery schedules and mid project cost escalations; and Chinese are already making what they made after copying the designs). So lets see the fun

Honest comments from other side of border and totally acceptable and not a single line i can say is not honest and favoring India. This is first phase to cleanup your mass and learn from it.. We need a people like you in other side of border

Which is still inferior to any other fighter in Indian air force other than Mig 21.

You didn't know what goodie's we add in our block 2 and it is now almost same as f-16 blk 52.

 

[Donatello]

Hi!
Was your demonstrator a btech or Mtech from IIT?normally the Btechs of IITs are far more capable in their streams than the Mtechs ,so before you form any opinion please confirm.
Secondly,i said,the level of competition is higher than those of american univs- what i was alluding to was the kind and complexity of tests they have to undergo to get into IITs- i know the research trend of american univs is certainly better than that of IITs- but then again a lot of researchers in those westerns univs are direct products of IIT

Secondly,oh yes,patent does show the "innovativeness" of the industry- i fail to understand as to why you dont agree,either way, it is the patents that actually earn revenues to an industry

He was from IIT-Bombay, did his undergrad from there and then did his Masters....i believe he said it was 2 years Masters course and he studied Signals and Comm since his PhD research was based on that......he didn't want to study in India for a PhD since he said the research is almost non-existent...so he chose to apply to the UK University, and got a full ride scholarship with support funding for his wife as well.

I am not saying Patents are not a measure of the innovation....what i am saying and you are missing out on is that Patents are NOT THE ONLY benchmark of innovation.

That is why publishing a research paper in the west is so so difficult...it has to be peer reviewed and examined before you dole it out.. (and trust me, there are shyt research unis in the developed world as well)......the idea is not to have high number of patents or papers...but rather the quality of them. Go through the link i gave you in the previous post...search around....they list the names of the projects....they are very transparent....and then tell me......what do you think?

@Skull and Bones can add more here since i believe he studied in India and went abroad.

 

[amardeep mishra]

The NITs are part of this. No matter how you look at it- from research to employability of graduates, the NITs are very poor by international standards.

Most NIT graduates don't even work as engineers for more than a couple of years. They use the fact that they passed the entrance exam (which is a reasonable signal of the fact that they are intelligent and very hard working) to get entry level managerial roles in corporates (or do MBAs).

hi,
again,i would like to remind that NOT ALL NITs are equal(only NIT trichy and warangal are the top ones) similarly NOT ALL IITs are equal in terms of calibre of students and placements.
now you'd naturally ask,how come all NITs are not equal? well the part of the answer lies in the cut off ranks of students taking various NITs,for instance majority of top 1000 AIR scorers in AIEEE go for trichy without a single thought,similarly top 1000 AIR in JEE choose IIT bombay without a spec of doubt!
Since i am myself a product of NIT trichy ,btech in instrumentation and control engineering,i think i can shed some light on the placement trends of my college-
Firstly yes,i agree,a lot of the graduates do end up working for fat salaries in companies like city corp,goldman sachs and credit suisse from my college- infact from my batch city corp took 7 however they hired 19 grads from my juniors batch! Now,naturally second question that comes to mind is how would you quatify that "lot"?what is the percentage of students opting for business streams,data analytics,etc, to your surprise this figure isnt even 40%! In circuital branches of my college this "percentage" is even lesser!
Secondly a "lot" of students also get hired in R&D firms like texas instruments,qualcom,broadcom and national instruments(for circuital branches)- their percentage although lesser than the number of students getting into business stream is still a "decent" number.
I am really not sure,what NITs did you actually go to to form that stunted erroneous perspective- I would strongly urge you to contact head of T&P Mr bhaktavathsalam for further clarifications!

what i am saying and you are missing out on is that Patents are NOT THE ONLY benchmark of innovation.

@Donatello
Care to explain the "other" benchmarks of "innovation".I would love to hear you out

That is why publishing a research paper in the west is so so difficult...it has to be peer reviewed and examined before you dole it out.. (and trust me, there are shyt research unis in the developed world as well)......the idea is not to have high number of patents or papers...but rather the quality of them. Go through the link i gave you in the previous post...search around....they list the names of the projects....they are very transparent....and then tell me......what do you think?

I am afraid you are mixing two different terms- research and innovations- to innovate new things you dont "necessarily" need a highly complex lab worth millions of dollars! research on the other hand requires millions of dollars