Rafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat

[Mosamania]

Thaat's a lot of trouble over a plane that is at best as good as an F-15C of the early 80s in Air-Air. But it hits Air-Ground target almost as good as an F-15E but not as good.

 

[Donatello]

hi,
again,i would like to remind that NOT ALL NITs are equal(only NIT trichy and warangal are the top ones) similarly NOT ALL IITs are equal in terms of calibre of students and placements.
now you'd naturally ask,how come all NITs are not equal? well the part of the answer lies in the cut off ranks of students taking various NITs,for instance majority of top 1000 AIR scorers in AIEEE go for trichy without a single thought,similarly top 1000 AIR in JEE choose IIT bombay without a spec of doubt!
Since i am myself a product of NIT trichy ,btech in instrumentation and control engineering,i think i can shed some light on the placement trends of my college-
Firstly yes,i agree,a lot of the graduates do end up working for fat salaries in companies like city corp,goldman sachs and credit suisse from my college- infact from my batch city corp took 7 however they hired 19 grads from my juniors batch! Now,naturally second question that comes to mind is how would you quatify that "lot"?what is the percentage of students opting for business streams,data analytics,etc, to your surprise this figure isnt even 40%! In circuital branches of my college this "percentage" is even lesser!
Secondly a "lot" of students also get hired in R&D firms like texas instruments,qualcom,broadcom and national instruments(for circuital branches)- their percentage although lesser than the number of students getting into business stream is still a "decent" number.
I am really not sure,what NITs did you actually go to to form that stunted erroneous perspective- I would strongly urge you to contact head of T&P Mr bhaktavathsalam for further clarifications!



@Donatello
Care to explain the "other" benchmarks of "innovation".I would love to hear you out

Patents work hand in hand with other sectors...like SME, spin offs, job creation, national security.........having more patents does not mean you will have more jobs created and more economic activity generated. 10 patents each worth 1 million are better than 100 patents each worth 10,000....i hope you understand the mathematics there.....so i guess you would choose 100 patents? because 100 is a bigger number than 10? More is better?

@Donatello
I am afraid you are mixing two different terms- research and innovations- to innovate new things you dont "necessarily" need a highly complex lab worth millions of dollars! research on the other hand requires millions of dollars

Both go hand in hand.....try telling a nano scientist he doesn't need the million dollar investment in the new equipment.....or a materials scientist........research can also be a simulation on a software like MATLAB....plotting results of a simulation is also research.

 

[amardeep mishra]

He was from IIT-Bombay, did his undergrad from there and then did his Masters....i believe he said it was 2 years Masters course and he studied Signals and Comm since his PhD research was based on that......he didn't want to study in India for a PhD since he said the research is almost non-existent...so he chose to apply to the UK University, and got a full ride scholarship with support funding for his wife as well.

Normally to get ECE(electronics and com) in IIT B you need to get an AIR of below 100- which means you need to be exceptionally brilliant! and when i say exceptionally brilliant i mean it- i dont think you have seen someone with an AIR of below 500- blieve me you would never form such an opinion and judging by your description i think it is highly likely that he'd be a mtech from IIT B and not a Btech.Believe me, it is FAR EASIER to get an admission into harvard ,princeton,cornell,AMU than getting into top 5 IITs! getting a GRE score of 330 is pretty easy than getting a top rank in either JEE or GATE. The highest and lowest GRE score from my batch were 334 and 320 respectively

 

[asquare]

hi,
again,i would like to remind that NOT ALL NITs are equal(only NIT trichy and warangal are the top ones) similarly NOT ALL IITs are equal in terms of calibre of students and placements.
now you'd naturally ask,how come all NITs are not equal? well the part of the answer lies in the cut off ranks of students taking various NITs,for instance majority of top 1000 AIR scorers in AIEEE go for trichy without a single thought,similarly top 1000 AIR in JEE choose IIT bombay without a spec of doubt!
Since i am myself a product of NIT trichy ,btech in instrumentation and control engineering,i think i can shed some light on the placement trends of my college-
Firstly yes,i agree,a lot of the graduates do end up working for fat salaries in companies like city corp,goldman sachs and credit suisse from my college- infact from my batch city corp took 7 however they hired 19 grads from my juniors batch! Now,naturally second question that comes to mind is how would you quatify that "lot"?what is the percentage of students opting for business streams,data analytics,etc, to your surprise this figure isnt even 40%! In circuital branches of my college this "percentage" is even lesser!
Secondly a "lot" of students also get hired in R&D firms like texas instruments,qualcom,broadcom and national instruments(for circuital branches)- their percentage although lesser than the number of students getting into business stream is still a "decent" number.
I am really not sure,what NITs did you actually go to to form that stunted erroneous perspective- I would strongly urge you to contact head of T&P Mr bhaktavathsalam for further clarifications!

While I don't work on that particular project myself, I'm sure all the NITs were visited and stakeholders spoken to- my opinion is base on the feedback I received. In case you're interested, google TEQIP (the project I'm referring to, currently about to begin it's 3rd phase). The NPIU website has some of the project documents. The project attempted to use the NITs as models of excellence for other lower tier colleges to follow. From what I understand, the NITs were found to be deficient in terms of outcome indicators like research and employability, but also in terms of governance and quality of instruction. However, you could certainly be right, there could be exceptional NITs that are imparting very high quality education.

 

[Donatello]

Normally to get ECE(electronics and com) in IIT B you need to get an AIR of below 100- which means you need to be exceptionally brilliant! and when i say exceptionally brilliant i mean it- i dont think you have seen someone with an AIR of below 500- blieve me you would never form such an opinion and judging by your description i think it is highly likely that he'd be a mtech from IIT B and not a Btech.Believe me, it is FAR EASIER to get an admission into harvard ,princeton,cornell,AMU than getting into top 5 IITs! getting a GRE score of 330 is pretty easy than getting a top rank in either JEE or GATE. The highest and lowest GRE score from my batch were 334 and 320 respectively

I honestly don't care what he did ....he said he did his bachelors from IIT and then did his Masters 2 years program from there......the guy was brilliant no doubt...maybe that is why he got the full scholarship...value of which is 40,000GBP per year with the living stipend.....and he probably realized he would make a better use of his abilities elsewhere.

Are you from NIT or IIT?

 

[amardeep mishra]

having more patents does not mean you will have more jobs created and more economic activity generated. 10 patents each worth 1 million are better than 100 patents each worth 10,000....i hope you understand the mathematics there.....so i guess you would choose 100 patents? because 100 is a bigger number than 10? More is better?

@Donatello
yeah patent does help in economic activity ,having more number surely does! Lets consider the oil industry,suppose some fine day a company wants to erect refinery,they'd need a host of systems,controllers- DCS,SCADA etc etc to name a few.Now an economy where patent filing is FEROCIOUSLY pushed like china- they would most probably source the systems/technology from local vendors - the original creators of technology.or better,they'd develop the technology inhouse!Whereas in an economy where patent filing is not accorded priority they'll end up license producing equipment and technology designed by some company in austria or UK!
So if a company invests in r&d and files a lot of patents then that company would not only be benefiting from itz own usage of technology but also by allowing others to use their technology(royalties).
I am sure companies like ZTE,huawei that file 2000+ patents annually understands the importance of patent filing in creating a knowledge based economy.THERE IS A REASON WHY PATENT FILING HAS BEEN ACCORDED A GREAT PRIORITY IN COUNTRIES LIKE INDIA and CHINA!

In case you're interested, google TEQIP (the project I'm referring to, currently about to begin it's 3rd phase)

Hi,
i know "TEQIP"! a lot of importance was laid on this when i was in final year

 

[Stephen Cohen]

@amardeep mishra

Could you please tell us ie the NON Technical people
what happens to the Rafale deal if MOD sticks to our demand

Will we see the Rafale or not in IAF

 

[amardeep mishra]

Are you from NIT or IIT?

@Donatello
As i said i am from NIT trichy a tad lesser than the first 5 IITs- nonetheless one of the exceptionally decent NITs. In india, getting into top 5 IITs(that too from general category is a big deal my friend)! Here is a videos from probably 90s that explains how IITs are perceived in west!-

 

[C130]

Advanced Hornets!

I always liked this aircraft ....... simple looking and beautifull ..... as an add-on carrier capable as well .

Second best choice of mine.

I just got a feeling India could get a great deal with the F-18 SH or the Advance version. It's not as good as the Rafale or EFT, but it could get the job done.

$70 to $80 million a piece would be about right for the Advance version

12 Brimestone missiles

perfect SEAD combo

 

[gslv mk3]

You didn't know what goodie's we add in our block 2 and it is now almost same as f-16 blk 52.

no change in engine or radar.still inferior.

You didn't know what goodie's we add in our block 2 and it is now almost same as f-16 blk 52.

no change in engine or radar.still inferior.

 

[My-Analogous]

no change in engine or radar.still inferior.



no change in engine or radar.still inferior.

Who told you that we didn't tune up the radar and add some composite to reduce weight?

 

[AUz]

Which is still inferior to any other fighter in Indian air force other than Mig 21.

Mig-21, Jaguar, and Tejas too.

Wait, Tejas are a failure and aren't even deployed yet so no, Tejas don't count

And don't worry, if you give us 10 billion dollars...we'll make you a very good 4.5th generation JF-17 Thunder .much superior to what we are making right now..and we'll make the controls of it easier too..so you your pilots could actually fly it effectively

 

[Abingdonboy]

Let's wait until March 2015, the Indian media has engaged in far too much misinformation on this deal for me to take this report seriously. Both the MoD and French side have agreed to fast track this deal and have stated it will be signed within months.

Additionally I wouldn't take anyone who reports this deal being worth $18-20 BN, this has been refuted enough times.

 

[niaz]

Thaat's a lot of trouble over a plane that is at best as good as an F-15C of the early 80s in Air-Air. But it hits Air-Ground target almost as good as an F-15E but not as good.

I beg to disagree with this statement.

F-15 is no doubt an excellent aircraft that has never been shot down despite having more than 100 air to air kills. However, one must not ignore that most of the kills were against less capable adversaries. For example Israeli F-15s against Syrian Migs, US against Iraqi Air force. Understand Saudi F-15’s have also shot down 2 Iranian Phantoms. Again Phantom is no match for F-15 in any field. In its F-15E version it can carry 24,000 lbs of ordinance which no doubt makes it a truly great fighter bomber.

In 2004 exercise “Cope India” Su 30 MK1s & Mig -29s achieved kills against F-15C albeit that UASF had agreed not to use BVR missiles. This shows that in a classic air to air combat, without the use of advanced BVR missile, F-15C is certainly not superior to Mk1 or Mig-29 in the hands of an experienced pilot.

Remember we are talking one versus one under equitable conditions. Royal Saudi Air force flies F-15’s and your claim that Rafael is at best as good as F-15C but not as good as F-15E is only valid when looked through the eyes of a patriot.

Perhaps in its F-15SE guise, because of its stealth features it is probably superior to Typhon & Raphael. My reasoning is based upon the fact that F-15 airframe is essentially a 1970’s aircraft design. Avionics & weapon systems of F-15E are of equal capability as that of Typhoon or Raphael. However, no matter how many modifications you do to a 40 year old design, it simply cannot compete with 21st century technology fighters such as Typhoon and Rafael.

 

[Mosamania]

I beg to disagree with this statement.

F-15 is no doubt an excellent aircraft that has never been shot down despite having more than 100 air to air kills. However, one must not ignore that most of the kills were against less capable adversaries. For example Israeli F-15s against Syrian Migs, US against Iraqi Air force. Understand Saudi F-15’s have also shot down 2 Iranian Phantoms. Again Phantom is no match for F-15 in any field. In its F-15E version it can carry 24,000 lbs of ordinance which no doubt makes it a truly great fighter bomber.

In 2004 exercise “Cope India” Su 30 MK1s & Mig -29s achieved kills against F-15C albeit that UASF had agreed not to use BVR missiles. This shows that in a classic air to air combat, without the use of advanced BVR missile, F-15C is certainly not superior to Mk1 or Mig-29 in the hands of an experienced pilot.

Remember we are talking one versus one under equitable conditions. Royal Saudi Air force flies F-15’s and your claim that Rafael is at best as good as F-15C but not as good as F-15E is only valid when looked through the eyes of a patriot.

Perhaps in its F-15SE guise, because of its stealth features it is probably superior to Typhon & Raphael. My reasoning is based upon the fact that F-15 airframe is essentially a 1970’s aircraft design. Avionics & weapon systems of F-15E are of equal capability as that of Typhoon or Raphael. However, no matter how many modifications you do to a 40 year old design, it simply cannot compete with 21st century technology fighters such as Typhoon and Rafael.

In a recent exercise between the RSAF and French Air Force the score between the F-15C and Rafale was 3-3. Hence why I said it is as good.

Saudi and French fighters get Familiar (F-15C vs Rafale)

In the Air-Ground role the F-15E can carry a wider range of munition, a bigger payload and at greater distances than the Rafale, while the Rafale has the Hammer missile/bomb to its advantage, the F-15E makes up for it by carrying SALM-ER, JASOW and JASSM missile not to mention the Maverick which is still a favourite to this day in many air forces.

 

[CONNAN]

sorry of OT question if the deal doesn't go through how feasible for india just to go for single seat flankers and what are the other options we got if the deal fails to fruitfly