Rafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat

[kurup]

Advanced Hornets!

I always liked this aircraft ....... simple looking and beautifull ..... as an add-on carrier capable as well .

 

[Chinese-Dragon]

The cost went from $12 billion to $20 billion?

No wonder Dassault is stalling the negotiations. Imagine how much it would cost if they delayed signing the contact for 2 more years.

India should go for Russian jets. Powerful and cost efficient.

Given the current circumstances, Russia might even give a large discount or good terms for transfer of technology. They could really use the money right now.

 

[SpArK]

The cost went from $12 billion to $20 billion?

No wonder Dassault is stalling the negotiations. Imagine how much it would cost if they delayed signing the contact for 2 more years.

India should go for Russian jets. Powerful and cost efficient.

Given the current circumstances, Russia might even give a large discount or good terms for transfer of technology. They could really use the money right now.

Russia is not an option.

We are already progressing forward with further orders of Su-30MKIs which is equal to Su-35.

And the other one, Mig-35 , which we are not that interested.

EFT is the one left unless Americans come with something sweet before Obama visit .

 

[The Great One]

Russia is not an option.

We are already progressing forward with further orders of Su-30MKIs which is equal to Su-35.

And the other one, Mig-35 , which we are not that interested.

EFT is the one left unless Americans come with something sweet before Obama visit .

There is always F-35...................................................................................................................

 

[Beast]

Indian needs to drop the demand for France to take responsible of HAL made Rafale. The French has proved cool headed mind prevail profit in Russia LHD mistral case.

If Indians think French will go desperate and give in Indian demands then they can wait for this deal for another 10 years of negotiation.

There is always F-35...................................................................................................................

F-35 will never allow Indian ToT. Indian will end up as a buyer.

 

[Donatello]

Dassault has to accept commitment mentioned in the RFP (Request for proposal), to be responsible for the manufacture of 108 jets by HAL. How can they unilaterally alter the contract?

I think we should cancel this project and ask for the MiG-35s instead or the Eurofighters, though far more expensive.

Because it was as stupid request in the first place. You really think a top notch western arms manufacturer would put themselves in that position? This has been discussed here, and let's be honest, this is HAL we are talking about....not exactly the best example when it comes to quality and delivery. The problem is, if Dassault agrees and HAL screws up, it is Dassault that is on the hook........they won't get the full payment. Perhaps, India can pay in full and that way Dassault can agree......that India won't block the funds for the work already done/in progress.

Eurofighter won't agree as well......ask any sane laywer...and they'll tell you the demand is ridiculous. Of course Dassault has full responsibility for the 18 aircraft they make....but how can they be accountable for the next 108 aircraft.....parts for which would be coming from Indian suppliers??

You know.....what happened with the Migs with their cheap/used parts? They weren't MIG approved and India had the flying coffin dilemma.

@SarthakGanguly @amardeep mishra @PlanetWarrior @Skull and Bones @SpArK @sancho

Abey oh.....sign the deal...or at least lobby for it to drop this demand.......You should have enough faith in your HAL that they can do the job well.....afterall Indians claim they made the Su30MKI and Tejas....so what's the big deal in 'assembling' a fighter?

Band kero yeh topi drama.

 

[Luca1]

Heck, you are not even ready to accept our ToT clause..and technically inferior as per the evaluations.

All these tot requirements will only hurt the Indian airmen. They don't care who build the plane, that just want to have the best and an existing plane, not one that is stuck in development hell or purchasing hell.

 

[Beast]

Modi shall just slapped the Indian bureaucracy who demand Dassault bear responsible of HAL dirty work and signed the paper with France.

 

[Luca1]

There is always F-35...................................................................................................................

India certain can get f-35. As long as it can wait for it and do not even bring up TOT. So realistically, India would never go for it.

 

[Superboy]

Considering India still has not received Scorpene sub even though the deal was signed in 2005, even if Rafale deal can be signed in 2015, which has likelihood near 0, India won't get Rafale even by 2020.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Westerners have always been very difficult partners specially those who are part of UNSC...Indians are now feeling the heat that Pak felt when we used to deal with them.

 

[amardeep mishra]

The problem is, if Dassault agrees and HAL screws up, it is Dassault that is on the hook........they won't get the full payment. Perhaps, India can pay in full and that way Dassault can agree......that India won't block the funds for the work already done/in progress.

Hi @Donatello

This is something beyond my actual interest yet i would like to shed some more light on this one- Your proposition that How can dassault be held responsible for 108 jets manufactured in india- it is not entirely correct, here are a few reasons -
1) Remember there will be a lot of critical technologies that french wont be parting away - HAL or indian MoD cant expect the french to part away with each and every tech they used or patented in rafale project. Now here starts the trouble- it has been observed,via various projects that the OEMs of these "Critical sub-systems" increase the price mid way during the life cycle of the product or even worse twist the arm of indian r&d labs to their tunes- Scorpene project where india is license producing 6 subs bears testimony to that fact!- So yes,either they PART AWAY with each and every single patent or bear the responsibility

2) your second point regarding HAL being an assembler is not entirely correct- while i agree- itz major source of revenue comes from license production of foreign designed products. However HAL is gradually changing that perception by creating a knowledge based eco-system conducive for aerospace research and that is by filing a lot of PATENTS every year- last year alone they filed 400-430 patents while this year this number is expected to be in the range 450-470!- You must also bear it in mind that HAL's primary responsibility was never to heavily involve itself in research- that was the job of ADA/NAL(ADA is a consortium of DRDO while NAL is a top aerospace lab of CSIR). Yet HAL is filing patent to the tunes of 450 per year does tell a very different story!

 

[Echo_419]

The cost went from $12 billion to $20 billion?

No wonder Dassault is stalling the negotiations. Imagine how much it would cost if they delayed signing the contact for 2 more years.

India should go for Russian jets. Powerful and cost efficient.

Given the current circumstances, Russia might even give a large discount or good terms for transfer of technology. They could really use the money right now.

Don't rely on the a Indian media for cost options & we already have a massive fleet if Russian jets

 

[Gandhi follower]

Gripen is the best solution. Cost effective, will help development of Tejas also.

 

[amardeep mishra]

You know.....what happened with the Migs with their cheap/used parts? They weren't MIG approved and India had the flying coffin dilemma.

Hi again!
There is again inconsistencies with your statements above- first off the reason why mig-21s are considered flying coffin is primarily because in 90s right after the fall of USSR, the supply of spare parts of these russian jets ran dry and the russians who were once pretty generous suddenly became stingy and started demanding exhorbitant prices for the very same parts- this clearly affected the performance of jets and to some extent maybe on the sortie generation rates. but indian industry has come a long way and a lot of these sub-systems are now being sourced from Indian companies. The crashes of migs has actually nothing to do with cheap parts- its more to do with their life and the frequent mainetenence requirements of russian systems- i remember one ex ACM of IAF confessed that operating the mig-29s A/Bs is so costly as they need so much of maintenance- he explicitly alluded to the point that russian engines are not good and that their MTBO is not even half as compared to american engines! - He was refering to older RD-33 engines