Rafale Deal Nosedives in Negotiation Combat

[anant_s]

Advanced Hornets!

Not sure sir.
Doesn't look like India going for F18.
Now in the hindsight it looks IAF should've pressed more and Indian government accepted Mirage 2000 back in 2001-2 when MMRCA story began.
The fleet strength would've been at a very healthy level today.
ALAS

 

[Koovie]

Scrap it if Dassault interested in a Cooperation.Develop a new fighter on par with MMRCA .

And wait for 3 decades until it becomes ready

 

[anant_s]

Cancel the deal, its your money and there are other fighters besides the Rafale. Lets see if France blinks.

True.
One of the biggest problems with delays all these years is that it puts pressure on IAF to re-work its requirements. I mean 12-13 years back, there was lot in India's inventory (MiG 23, 21 upgrades etc) and even though some of these were to be retired by 2010, times weren't that desperate.
Now MMRCA has not only to take care of MiG 21/23 but also MiG 27 and possibly Jaguars too, considering the most optimistic time duration for induction possible.
Really this must be a nightmare for anyone devices strategies. Government on the other hand doesn't look to be very sensitive to these realities and at the end it is the forces who suffer.

And wait for 3 decades until it becomes ready

That would be criminal delay (if it already isn't)

 

[sathya]

If the deal gets delayed even a few months post march ,

With parrikar clearing deals in such a pace , such a massive funds won't be available after August 15"

Then it will get pushed To 2016

 

[TimeTraveller]

Advanced Hornets!

Looks Beautiful .......................

 

[anant_s]

If the deal gets delayed even a few months post march ,

With parrikar clearing deals in such a pace , such a massive funds won't be available after August 15"

Then it will get pushed To 2016

there has been discussions in the past on this and looks like it isn't the case of funds that is stooping the deal but the sheer value of the deal must be having something to do.
We know, GoI doesn't have to pay USD 15 or 18 billion at one go and all payments (except initial payment upfront) would be on pro-rata basis. Assuming 10% payment upfront amount (or aprrox USD 2 billion), the remaining 13-16 billion would be paid in next 7-8 years assuming 12-13 birds a year and that works out a maximum of USD 2 billion per year (or about 12,000 crores per year), a big but manageable amount. Also by that time 2017, Su 30 MKI production would've ceased so that would ease the burden on budget.
The fact could be that for a gigantic deal like this, Govt doesn't want to be seen bypassing any law or give signals like it is favoring anyone. The past ghosts of massive scandals in defence deals could be forcing govt. to put each and every step in a very cautious manner.
These are all novice calculations and may be horribly wrong, but the point is cost is not the biggest problem behind deal.

I guess French government might just have to step in.

 

[rockstarIN]

Advanced Hornets!

Heck, you are not even ready to accept our ToT clause..and technically inferior as per the evaluations.

 

[Hellfire]

Any idea if there is any other stumbling block besides, Dassault having to be responsible for 108 HAL make birds.
I'm not sure what French side's reservations are, but considering HAL has done quite fine with Su 30 MKI production plan, i can't understand why this is becoming a roadblock.
@DrSomnath999 Sir, your views, info?

Even the C-130s purchased by India were under the clause that Indians will not construct the hangers or touch the aircraft for any kind of modifications or servicing failing which the warranty of the aircraft will be null and void. The hangers built at the home base of the Hercules are state of the art and totally US built. Save for the crash due to pilot error in which one C130 was lost, the aircrafts are performing quite commendably. On the other hand, there was an incident where in the IL-78 was stripped of its storage tanks for emergency load carrying, The Indian expertise was highlighted by an incident where in the stripped aircraft, once refitted with its storage tank and refueling pods, landed back at the home base with the lower deck full of leaking aviation fuel. The aircraft luckily was undamaged. This "jugaad" attitude does us in. In such a scenario, how can a foreign vendor be responsible for an equipment being made by India totally. There are numerous examples wherein the Indian PSUs charged with license assembly and production of equipment have botched the QR of the equipment resulting in loss of lives and crucial equipment. Recently, SU-30MKI was grounded, and the media immediately drew parallel to the Mig - 21s. Russia was not called for technical investigation due to the fact that the fault lay with Indian side and not Russia.

It has become a case of who blinks first.
India knows Dassault won't let go the deal and France knows India can ill afford to let the efforts and time put in concluding the deal thus far, go away.
Something must give now!

Wrong. It is that India can afford to play out, we have the economic capability and also ... the stupidity of ours which delays whatever is essential for the country .... we are in no great hurry for the aircraft. You forget that national security is the least of our concerns. We are still not out of our la la land of being peaceful etc etc. But on a serious note, it is a case wherein the Dassault loses out if it does not fall in line as the European economy (of France too) is not in much of a shape. The latest Ukrainian crisis has allowed India an additional Ace in its pack. Russian economy is struggling and like the 90s, India is in the best position to help it out (be patronizing their defence industries; they can ill afford to irritate India with awry and tardy delivery schedules and mid project cost escalations; and Chinese are already making what they made after copying the designs). So lets see the fun

 

[Gufi]

I wonder why India will not go to Russian fighters. The issue of ToT and quality is all short term in the larger picture. Russia needs funds for their continued R n D and any planes India buys will have spare parts and proper supply chains. Plus Russa now would agree to almost anything.

 

[SpArK]

Its believed that procurement secretary was hostile towards the deal.

If not interested look for other options and dont waste our time and patience.

 

[Luca1]

Cancel the deal, its your money and there are other fighters besides the Rafale. Lets see if France blinks.

Indians I'd not explicitly require the bidders to be responsible for planes manufacture by HAL. This is the sticking point. But how can someone else be responsible for problems create by another company. No companies would agree to this term. This look like the LCA equivalent. But instead of trouble in building a plane, India is stuck in buying a plane

 

[shree835]

Advanced Hornets!

A Good Choice indeed.

 

[AUz]

lol...what a shame!

india should give 10 billion dollars to Pak-China---we'll make you a kick-*** JF-17 so your flying coffins could be replaced.

 

[gslv mk3]

lol...what a shame!

india should give 10 billion dollars to Pak-China---we'll make you a kick-*** JF-17 so your flying coffins could be replaced.

Which is still inferior to any other fighter in Indian air force other than Mig 21.

 

[SrNair]

And wait for 3 decades until it becomes ready

Unfortunately.You are right.
But let see what will happen