Questions about Butt/Khawaja clan and Kashmiri descendants in Pakistan

[Apprentice]

what do you want to prove with this silly post...
are you not satisfied as being a Muslim and a Pakistan..?
does being butt or Khawaja makes you special above others...?
let's take a test :
1. Are you and your family extremely fat to the busting point ....then you can be butt......? But then all other people who are fat , what about them....are they butt too......
2.are you fairer then usual people .... ?They say that Khawaja and butt have lighter skin tone .... But I have seen butts and Khawaja's who have very brown and black complexion too , now what would you say.....?

3. Do you eat everything in front of you , including bones of your chicken ? Then you definitely are a butt .... Not sure about Khawaja ....

nothing would make you superior ,
neither your cast , neither your house ,neither your colour ....
only best among you is who has best Taqwa....
we don't need this shit in Pakistan....this cast system we have adopted from hindu's making us believing some casts are higher and better then the other...

Caste system is not just about 'high' and 'low'. Its about your race. Allah has divided us into separate tribes and races so that we have an identity.

And yes being a Pakistani is not enough for me. Pakistan is an artificial identity. My real identity after my religion is my ethnicity/race-which is Kashmiri.

But yes no race is superior to the other.

P.S. True Butts and Kashmiris are slim. Those who are fat have actually deviated from the classical Kashmiri look.

I am for marrying outside bradri to kill biradrism but ye Kashmiripan sey bedakhal na karo :-(

read my exchange with our bhai in the Valley

either you stay in the biradari or you are out

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Are Muslim Butts and Pandit Bhats , From same descendants or are they different ?

Yes and if you look at genetic spread, the closest ethnic group in India to Pakistan are Kashmiri Pandits.

 

[Kashmiri Pandit]

Yes and if you look at genetic spread, the closest ethnic group in India to Pakistan are Kashmiri Pandits.

Any Documents to show that . I am interested .
I want to myself check my genetics to find truth to my Grand Dads claim that we were Persians
But such tests cost money and I am unemployed

 

[utraash]

Butt is a clan name much like Lone, Mir, Dar, Wain, Magray. These are ancient Kashmiri tribes and the origins are from the valley. Butt is similar to Bhat. Khawaja is an honorific title used by most of the tribes above, just like all Jatt tribes use the title 'Chaudhary'. Khwajah is not a clan/tribe but a title.

Butt were of brahmin origin allegedly, however in the varna system they were mainly traders and artisans.

All the above mentioned tribes have been mentioned in kalhanas rajataringiri in one way or another and going by that they trace their descent from the valley for at least 1000 years and most probably a lot lot longer. These tribes were instrumental in making and shaping the history of kashmir from king makers to king breakers.

My lineage trace descent from gurez and sopore, Baramullah , feudal landlords aka 'damaras', who occupied the lands from kargil down to gurez and who fought in the original battles kalhana describes in the 'kings of kashmir', there is no coincidence that the freedom struggle in Indian Occupied Kashmir has always and will always be from gurez, sopore and baramullah from the forefront. These tribes have been waging freedom struggle for millenia.

Also i am part butt from my mums side

At the heart of Baramulla market there is big poster of Mohd Sherwani who saved Srinagar falling into Pakistani raiders. He was also at forefront to defend the nation he belonged to...
Gurez or main Baramulla area remains peaceful comparing to other parts of valley.



http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Who-changed-the-face-of-47-war/articleshow/1200682.cms

As far as I have heard from Kashmiri folks they claim all Butt are originally Bhatt from Kashmir.
Similarly Dar comes from Dhar originally. All these have Hindu lineage at the roots.

Any Documents to show that . I am interested .
I want to myself check my genetics to find truth to my Grand Dads claim that we were Persians
But such tests cost money and I am unemployed

Persian , really?

 

[Kashmiri Pandit]

At the heart of Baramulla market there is big poster of Mohd Sherwani who saved Srinagar falling into Pakistani raiders. He was also at forefront to defend the nation he belonged to...
Gurez or main Baramulla area remains peaceful comparing to other parts of valley.



http://m.timesofindia.com/india/Who-changed-the-face-of-47-war/articleshow/1200682.cms

As far as I have heard from Kashmiri folks they claim all Butt are originally Bhatt from Kashmir.
Similarly Dar comes from Dhar originally. All these have Hindu lineage at the roots.



Persian , really?

They learnt about Aryans Migrating in their schools , so that may be a plausible reason .
That was in Pre Independence India

 

[Apprentice]

Maybe your ancestors were cowards, mine weren't. One of my ancestor was a high ranking British Indian Army officer who's Kashmiri ancestry is not in doubt as my family has a paper trail of records to prove so. And frankly, I don't need a Kashmiri authentication from you. We know our family history well going back around at least ~200 years.

Also, since you are an expert on all things Kashmiri, my Grandfather was in the AJK Regiment since its formation. I guess those Kashmiris who crossed over to join Pakistan side were not real Kashmiris because they weren't cowards?

The people of Azad Kashmir who fought on Pakistan's side in 1947 were mainly Paharis, Gujjars, Sudhans etc. They were not Kashmiris.

Any Documents to show that . I am interested .
I want to myself check my genetics to find truth to my Grand Dads claim that we were Persians
But such tests cost money and I am unemployed

Some Pandits who were in the service of Afghan rulers adopted the title 'Durrani'.

Yes and if you look at genetic spread, the closest ethnic group in India to Pakistan are Kashmiri Pandits.

The closest ethnic group in India to most Pakistanis are the Jats and Rajputs of Indian Punjab and Jammu.

 

[Kashmiri Pandit]

The people of Azad Kashmir who fought on Pakistan's side in 1947 were mainly Paharis, Gujjars, Sudhans etc. They were not Kashmiris.



Some Pandits who were in the service of Afghan rulers adopted the title 'Durrani'.



The closest ethnic group in India to most Pakistanis are the Jats and Rajputs of Indian Punjab and Jammu.

I don't know

Though it was Akbar who called our community Pandits Since then it has stick to us .
Now the question is whether it meant Pandit or Pundit

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

Kashmiris who live in Punjab are not even more than 1 percent of Punjab's population.

You're quite damn wrong... i'd put that number to around 10-20% or even 35% The massive scale of the Muslim ethnic cleansing that occurred in Jammu (and parts of Kashmir) is unfortunately not well known and documented. There were 3 major migrations; first one occurred during the oppressive Sikh occupation of Kashmir, second one occurred during Dogra sponsored massacres and forced migrations, third one occurred in 1946-1947 in an attempt to change demography (in which my family migrated to Pakistan).

2) Heavy eating, meat-eating, rice-eating etc

That describes more like Punjabis...

They learnt about Aryans Migrating in their schools , so that may be a plausible reason .

'Aryan migration' drama has been debunked over and over... 'Aryan' was simply a title not a race, it meant noble and any noble could be called an Aryan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

 

[Kashmiri Pandit]

'Aryan migration' drama has been debunked over and over... 'Aryan' was simply a title not a race, it meant noble and any noble could be called an Aryan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

Yup Yup I know . It was a self designation .
Though Persians also called themselves Aryans and Vedic People called themselves Aryans too .

 

[Apprentice]

You're quite damn wrong... i'd put that number to around 10-20% or even 35% The massive scale of the Muslim ethnic cleansing that occurred in Jammu (and parts of Kashmir) is unfortunately not well known and documented. There were 3 major migrations; first one occurred during the oppressive Sikh occupation of Kashmir, second one occurred during Dogra sponsored massacres and forced migrations, third one occurred in 1946-1947 in an attempt to change demography (in which my family migrated to Pakistan).


That describes more like Punjabis...


'Aryan migration' drama has been debunked over and over... 'Aryan' was simply a title not a race, it meant noble and any noble could be called an Aryan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryan

By Kashmiris I do not mean Pahari and Gujjar immigrants from Jammu. They are not seen as 'Kashmiris'. By Kashmiri I mean only members of Kashmiri ethnicity. In Punjab Paharis and Gujjars from Jammu are also not counted under 'Kashmiris'

According to the 1881 Punjab Census the population of major Kashmiri tribes in Punjab was this:

Butt: 24,463
Dar: 16,215
Lone: 4,848
Wani: 7,419
Mir: 19,855
Sheikh: 14,902

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmiris_of_Punjab#Pre-independence

And the 1881 Census recorded that Punjab's total population was 20.8 million. [Source: http://www.global.ucsb.edu/punjab/s...sitefiles/journals/volume11/no1/6_krishan.pdf]

We know that half of Punjab was Muslim. So total Muslim population of Punjab would have been approximately 10.4 million in 1881. 1% of that number is 104,000.

And major Kashmiri tribes at the time totalled approximately 85,000. I am guessing with the inclusion of minor Kashmiri tribes the number would have risen to 100,000-120,000

So yes. Do the maths. Kashmiri population is hardly more than 1-2% of Punjab.

P.S. Punjabis actually emphasise more in eating roti, daal and sabzi. Heavy eating, meat eating and rice eating are quintessential Kashmiri characteristics.

 

[Talwar e Pakistan]

By Kashmiris I do not mean Pahari and Gujjar immigrants from Jammu. They are not seen as 'Kashmiris'. By Kashmiri I mean only members of Kashmiri ethnicity. In Punjab Paharis and Gujjars from Jammu are also not counted under 'Kashmiris'

According to the 1881 Punjab Census the population of major Kashmiri tribes in Punjab was this:

Butt: 24,463
Dar: 16,215
Lone: 4,848
Wani: 7,419
Mir: 19,855
Sheikh: 14,902

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmiris_of_Punjab#Pre-independence

And the 1881 Census recorded that Punjab's total population was 20.8 million. [Source: http://www.global.ucsb.edu/punjab/s...sitefiles/journals/volume11/no1/6_krishan.pdf]

We know that half of Punjab was Muslim. So total Muslim population of Punjab would have been approximately 10.4 million in 1881. 1% of that number is 104,000.

And major Kashmiri tribes at the time totalled approximately 85,000. I am guessing with the inclusion of minor Kashmiri tribes the number would have risen to 100,000-120,000

So yes. Do the maths. Kashmiri population is hardly more than 1-2% of Punjab.

P.S. Punjabis actually emphasise more in eating roti, daal and sabzi. Heavy eating, meat eating and rice eating are quintessential Kashmiri characteristics.

lol... British censuses were very inaccurate and majority of Kashmiri descent people in Punjab migrated around 1930s-1940s with a surge in 1946-1947.

http://www.southasiapeoples.org/listing?data_type=rog4&data_value=PK04

 

[Apprentice]

lol... British censuses were very inaccurate and majority of Kashmiri descent people in Punjab migrated around 1930s-1940s with a surge in 1946-1947.

http://www.southasiapeoples.org/listing?data_type=rog4&data_value=PK04

Most ethnic Kashmiris from the Valley actually came to Punjab during Sikh rule and Dogra rule, with a surge during the famines of 1833 and 1878.

There was less migration in the 1930s and 1940s.

There was almost no migration out of the Valley in 1947. The migration to Punjab in 1947 happened from Jammu which was mostly a Dogri/Pahari/Gujjar area.

You seriously want me to take South Asia Peoples Listing as a reliable source? This is a joke right?

 

[Kashmiri Pandit]

lol... British censuses were very inaccurate and majority of Kashmiri descent people in Punjab migrated around 1930s-1940s with a surge in 1946-1947.

http://www.southasiapeoples.org/listing?data_type=rog4&data_value=PK04

As per the stories ,
Many people have migrated from Kashmir to United Punjab in last 800 years across various phases . This includes People migrating due to famine in late 19th century .

 

[utraash]

They learnt about Aryans Migrating in their schools , so that may be a plausible reason .
That was in Pre Independence India

That notion has created fault lines amongst us & we have paid heavily for it.

 

[Kashmiri Pandit]

That notion has created fault lines amongst us & we have paid heavily for it.

Human migrations have been happening since eternity .
History is co concocted that its better to live and believe the Self rather than what others say or History speaks about .

We don't have concrete proofs about most stuff from Past .
All we do is interpret or Guess based on limited and ever changing evidence .