Questions about Butt/Khawaja clan and Kashmiri descendants in Pakistan

[django]

Dont marry Kashmiri girls they have a tendency to inflate like balloons

 

[_Khawaja]

That's an interesting read, you got more of that?

 

[Apprentice]

That's an interesting read, you got more of that?

Read the Valley of Kashmir by Sir Walter Lawrence

https://ia800205.us.archive.org/10/items/valleyofkashmir00lawruoft/valleyofkashmir00lawruoft.pdf

 

[krash]

What you are no longer Kashmiri if you marry non Kashmiri :-(
@krash
Ye dhandli hay
Matbal mein Sheikh ho kar bhi Kashmiri nahi :-(

I am for marrying outside biradri to kill biradrism but ye Kashmiripan sey bedakhal na karo :-(

Could be the situation in the valley at play, just my guess. Marrying into Kashmiris was a strong preference (still not a must) until my parents days so all us cousins can claim to be 'pure' but now, although still the preference, it's not as strong. Which, I agree with you, is good.

Mir is actually a Mughal caste who assimilated among Kashmiris during Mughal and Shahmiri rule.

Dar, Lone, Tantray, Magray, Rather etc are all Kashmiri Kashatriyas while Butt, Ganai, Sapru and Mantu etc were all Kashmiri Brahmins.

Many of the smaller Kashmiri castes in Punjab now use the Sheikh title or the Khawaja title and have forgotten their original surname.

For example Allama Iqbal was Sapru but used the Sheikh title whilst Saadat Hasan Manto's father used the Khawaja title in spite of being a Mantu.

Interesting. I always understood that Kashmiri Sheikh's were mostly converted pundits. For example, my grandad's grandad, Pandit Mansanath, when converted to Islam adopted the surname.


Guess who's grandma's sister was married to Manto.

 

[Apprentice]

Could be the situation in the valley at play, just my guess. Marrying into Kashmiris was a strong preference (still not a must) until my parents days so all us cousins can claim to be 'pure' but now, although still the preference, it's not as strong. Which, I agree with you, is good.

I don't think its good at all that Kashmiris in Punjab are losing what remains of their identity. Intermarriage leads to a loss of identity, no question about it.

We have lost our language and most of our culture. All that remains Kashmiri about us is our blood. If that too goes we will no longer have a true ethnic identity/race to belong to.

 

[krash]

I don't think its good at all that Kashmiris in Punjab are losing what remains of their identity. Intermarriage leads to a loss of identity, no question about it.

We have lost our language and most of our culture. All that remains Kashmiri about us is our blood. If that too goes we will no longer have a true ethnic identity/race to belong to.

I don't know, never been a big fan of ethno-nationalism. Don't get me wrong, I am proud of my Kashmiri cultural and ancestral heritage and a big admirer of our national diversity but the country needs some other medicine. IMHO, the rest of Pakistan should take a page out of our book. We must form an amalgamated society because God knows we aren't wise or intelligent enough to integrate through diversity.

Plus don't you think that disallowing intermarriages is a bit too archaic? The purity of blood, imo at least, doesn't really hold any intrinsic value and what really matters is the ancestral lineage and cultural practices. Unless there's a supposedly "divine" reason to it as is for our 'syed' brothers.

@Zibago what say you?

 

[Zibago]

I don't know, never been a big fan of ethno-nationalism. Don't get me wrong, I am proud of my Kashmiri cultural and ancestral heritage and a big admirer of our national diversity but the country needs some other medicine. IMHO, the rest of Pakistan should take a page out of our book. We must form an amalgamated society because God knows we aren't wise or intelligent enough to integrate through diversity.

Plus don't you think that disallowing intermarriages is a bit too archaic? The purity of blood, imo at least, doesn't really hold any intrinsic value and what really matters is the ancestral lineage and cultural practices. Unless there's a supposedly "divine" reason to it as is for our 'syed' brothers.

@Zibago what say you?

ugh I hate Syed superiority complex I am totally against making bs like biradri as a condition of marriage they just give hints of your past thats it nothing more

 

[Apprentice]

I don't know, never been a big fan of ethno-nationalism. Don't get me wrong, I am proud of my Kashmiri cultural and ancestral heritage and a big admirer of our national diversity but the country needs some other medicine. IMHO, the rest of Pakistan should take a page out of our book. We must form an amalgamated society because God knows we aren't wise or intelligent enough to integrate through diversity.

Plus don't you think that disallowing intermarriages is a bit too archaic? The purity of blood, imo at least, doesn't really hold any intrinsic value and what really matters is the ancestral lineage and cultural practices. Unless there's a supposedly "divine" reason to it as is for our 'syed' brothers.

@Zibago what say you?

This is not about ethno-nationalism, its about having an identity. Lets face up to it. Our ethnicity is our race and our identity. Your nationality doesn't make you look like how you are and what you are. Its your racial characteristics passed through genes. And Pakistan is just a nationality for us, not a race we can belong to. Races outlive countries.

And lets be honest here. Pasthuns, Sindhis and Baloch wil never amalgate with other ethnicities. Only Punjabis will do it. And these ethnic identities are the identities which will last. Mark my words. These ethnicities have thousands of years of history.

And we are not amalgating into the Pakistani nation at all. Instead we are at risk of losing our Kashmiri ethnicity in a country where no other non-Punjabi ethnicity will ever follow suit in mixing with other ethnicities. In other words we are losing ourselves for nothing.

 

[krash]

This is not about ethno-nationalism, its about having an identity. Lets face up to it. Our ethnicity is our race and our identity. Your nationality doesn't make you look like how you are and what you are. Its your racial characteristics passed through genes. And Pakistan is just a nationality for us, not a race we can belong to. Races outlive countries.

The identity comes from the country. Nobody outside will ever identify you as a Kashmiri, only as a Pakistani. The world recognises you because of your passport. Our ethnicity is our lineage, our history and our sub-culture, all protected by our family names and practices, but what it is not is our primary identity, not anymore at least. Our physical characteristics are just that, physical characteristics. They are the most fickle and inconsequential of anyone's being. The outsider can't tell a Korean from a Japanese, a Chinese from a Vietnamese, and for that matter, a Pakistani from an Indian. Our future, our present, our interests, our economic well being, our safety, security and freedom are all tied to and guaranteed by the state, our nationality, our true identity, not by our ethnicity.

And lets be honest here. Pasthuns, Sindhis and Baloch wil never amalgate with other ethnicities. Only Punjabis will do it. And these ethnic identities are the identities which will last. Mark my words. These ethnicities have thousands of years of history.

All the more reason for us to provide the first drop. This rigidity against all reason has never been our people's trait, let's not start following the blind man now. Our people have always been progressive in thought and culture. Besides, every Kashmiri that marries outside breaks an equal part of the other ethnicity away. All ethnicities evolve, genetically and culturally. The Pakhtuns are a far cry of their Turko-Aryan decent, the Hazaras are a shadow of their Mongol roots, the Baltis are not Tibetans anymore, even the Kashmiris are not true to their aboriginal past anymore. The trend of the world is assimilation through pragmatism. What is useless is discarded, what is pragmatic is adopted. Education will change everything, it's only a matter of time. Happened to the west, will happen to us as well.

The only time when ethnic identities need be defended is when those ethnic identities are truly being systematically and overtly targeted against by the majority. Us Kashmiris in Pakistan and all the rest as well, thankfully, are not in this situation at all, despite what some illiterate loudmouths would wan't you to believe.

And we are not amalgating into the Pakistani nation at all. Instead we are at risk of losing our Kashmiri ethnicity in a country where no other non-Punjabi ethnicity will ever follow suit in mixing with other ethnicities. In other words we are losing ourselves for nothing.

We all are, only very slowly. The newer generation, progressively, has lesser time for these archaic ideas.

@Zibago

 

[Apprentice]

The identity comes from the country. Nobody outside will ever identify you as a Kashmiri, only as a Pakistani. The world recognises you because of your passport. Our ethnicity is our lineage, our history and our sub-culture, all protected by our family names and practices, but what it is not is our primary identity, not anymore at least. Our physical characteristics are just that, physical characteristics. They are the most fickle and inconsequential of anyone's being. The outsider can't tell a Korean from a Japanese, a Chinese from a Vietnamese, and for that matter, a Pakistani from an Indian. Our future, our present, our interests, our economic well being, our safety, security and freedom are all tied to and guaranteed by the state, our nationality, our true identity, not by our ethnicity.



All the more reason for us to provide the first drop. This rigidity against all reason has never been our people's trait, let's not start following the blind man now. Our people have always been progressive in thought and culture. Besides, every Kashmiri that marries outside breaks an equal part of the other ethnicity away. All ethnicities evolve, genetically and culturally. The Pakhtuns are a far cry of their Turko-Aryan decent, the Hazaras are a shadow of their Mongol roots, the Baltis are not Tibetans anymore, even the Kashmiris are not true to their aboriginal past anymore. The trend of the world is assimilation through pragmatism. What is useless is discarded, what is pragmatic is adopted. Education will change everything, it's only a matter of time. Happened to the west, will happen to us as well.

The only time when ethnic identities need be defended is when those ethnic identities are truly being systematically and overtly targeted against by the majority. Us Kashmiris in Pakistan and all the rest as well, thankfully, are not in this situation at all, despite what some illiterate loudmouths would wan't you to believe.



We all are, only very slowly. The newer generation, progressively, has lesser time for these archaic ideas.

@Zibago

Well if you choose to marry outside thats your choice. But with that choice comes the responsibility for your children to not call themselves 'Kashmiri'. Thats how it is in the Valley.

As for Pakistan there is no guarantee that the country will last another 100 years. 1971 should be a wake up call.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of Pakistan- the Muslim answer to India. But the 'Pakistani identity' is not something we can rely on to last.

Tajikistan is the land of Tajiks, Georgia the land of Georgians, Japan the land of ethnic Japanese, Thailand the land of ethnic Thai, England the land of English ethnics, likewise for nearly all European states. Israel the land of Jews etc

But what is Pakistan? Who are Pakis? There is no such ethnic group.

The above arguments for Pakistan can also apply to ethnically diverse India or Afghanistan. But Afghan is another term for Pashtuns. And Afghanistan is mostly Pashtun. India's other common name is Hindustan and that means 'land of Hindus'. India is home to most of the world's Hindus.

 

[Zibago]

Well if you choose to marry outside thats your choice. But with that choice comes the responsibility for your children to not call themselves 'Kashmiri'. Thats how it is in the Valley.

As for Pakistan there is no guarantee that the country will last another 100 years. 1971 should be a wake up call.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of Pakistan- the Muslim answer to India. But the 'Pakistani identity' is not something we can rely on to last.

Tajikistan is the land of Tajiks, Georgia the land of Georgians, Japan the land of ethnic Japanese, Thailand the land of ethnic Thai, England the land of English ethnics, likewise for nearly all European states. Israel the land of Jews etc

But what is Pakistan? Who are Pakis? There is no such ethnic group.

The above arguments for Pakistan can also apply to ethnically diverse India or Afghanistan. But Afghan is another term for Pashtuns. And Afghanistan is mostly Pashtun. India's other common name is Hindustan and that means 'land of Hindus'. India is home to most of the world's Hindus.

Tsk tsk thats why Kashmiris get stereotypes of being back-stabbers to me my ethnicity comes second my country comes first to hell with Koshur I dont care if I cant speak it but I would not wish disintegration upon my country just because I cant speak it

The identity comes from the country. Nobody outside will ever identify you as a Kashmiri, only as a Pakistani. The world recognises you because of your passport. Our ethnicity is our lineage, our history and our sub-culture, all protected by our family names and practices, but what it is not is our primary identity, not anymore at least. Our physical characteristics are just that, physical characteristics. They are the most fickle and inconsequential of anyone's being. The outsider can't tell a Korean from a Japanese, a Chinese from a Vietnamese, and for that matter, a Pakistani from an Indian. Our future, our present, our interests, our economic well being, our safety, security and freedom are all tied to and guaranteed by the state, our nationality, our true identity, not by our ethnicity.



All the more reason for us to provide the first drop. This rigidity against all reason has never been our people's trait, let's not start following the blind man now. Our people have always been progressive in thought and culture. Besides, every Kashmiri that marries outside breaks an equal part of the other ethnicity away. All ethnicities evolve, genetically and culturally. The Pakhtuns are a far cry of their Turko-Aryan decent, the Hazaras are a shadow of their Mongol roots, the Baltis are not Tibetans anymore, even the Kashmiris are not true to their aboriginal past anymore. The trend of the world is assimilation through pragmatism. What is useless is discarded, what is pragmatic is adopted. Education will change everything, it's only a matter of time. Happened to the west, will happen to us as well.

The only time when ethnic identities need be defended is when those ethnic identities are truly being systematically and overtly targeted against by the majority. Us Kashmiris in Pakistan and all the rest as well, thankfully, are not in this situation at all, despite what some illiterate loudmouths would wan't you to believe.



We all are, only very slowly. The newer generation, progressively, has lesser time for these archaic ideas.

@Zibago

I rather learn .net and python
Baby butt ho ya memon ya ranghar sanu ki achi ho to qabool hay

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

Well if you choose to marry outside thats your choice. But with that choice comes the responsibility for your children to not call themselves 'Kashmiri'. Thats how it is in the Valley.

As for Pakistan there is no guarantee that the country will last another 100 years. 1971 should be a wake up call.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of Pakistan- the Muslim answer to India. But the 'Pakistani identity' is not something we can rely on to last.

Tajikistan is the land of Tajiks, Georgia the land of Georgians, Japan the land of ethnic Japanese, Thailand the land of ethnic Thai, England the land of English ethnics, likewise for nearly all European states. Israel the land of Jews etc

But what is Pakistan? Who are Pakis? There is no such ethnic group.

The above arguments for Pakistan can also apply to ethnically diverse India or Afghanistan. But Afghan is another term for Pashtuns. And Afghanistan is mostly Pashtun. India's other common name is Hindustan and that means 'land of Hindus'. India is home to most of the world's Hindus.

so afghans can have dozen ethnic groups (pashtuns make 45 percent)..

india can have dozens of ethnicities..

so can iran

and so can other multicultural countries but/// who are Pakis?

 

[Zibago]

Well if you choose to marry outside thats your choice. But with that choice comes the responsibility for your children to not call themselves 'Kashmiri'. Thats how it is in the Valley.

As for Pakistan there is no guarantee that the country will last another 100 years. 1971 should be a wake up call.

Don't get me wrong. I love the idea of Pakistan- the Muslim answer to India. But the 'Pakistani identity' is not something we can rely on to last.

Tajikistan is the land of Tajiks, Georgia the land of Georgians, Japan the land of ethnic Japanese, Thailand the land of ethnic Thai, England the land of English ethnics, likewise for nearly all European states. Israel the land of Jews etc

But what is Pakistan? Who are Pakis? There is no such ethnic group.

The above arguments for Pakistan can also apply to ethnically diverse India or Afghanistan. But Afghan is another term for Pashtuns. And Afghanistan is mostly Pashtun. India's other common name is Hindustan and that means 'land of Hindus'. India is home to most of the world's Hindus.

There Is no thing as **** that term was used by racist white people to mock brown folks and Pakistanis are people from Pakistan just like Jordanians are people from Jordan the Pakistani identity is strong among its youth and its people infact we are getting more and more nationalist every year and that is a good thing

so afghans can have dozen ethnic groups (pashtuns make 45 percent)..

india can have dozens of ethnicities..

so can iran

and so can other multicultural countries but/// who are Pakis?

Self hating brown sahabs

 

[Apprentice]

There Is no thing as **** that term was used by racist white people to mock brown folks and Pakistanis are people from Pakistan just like Jordanians are people from Jordan the Pakistani identity is strong among its youth and its people infact we are getting more and more nationalist every year and that is a good thing


Self hating brown sahabs

How can you guarantee that the self-identification of Pakistanis with their nationality will last?

 

[Zibago]

How can you guarantee that the self-identification of Pakistanis with their nationality will last?

Same reason why i believe sky wont fall tommorow as long as Pakistan is a nuclear state we have nothing to worry about