Qatar: Talks with Pakistan over Mirage 2000-5s

[Signalian]

There hs been a di

Actually that is not going to happen. Mirage is being acquired in limited numbers for raising one or two sqdrns to get a high speed interceptor and a platform that can readily launch Ra'ad ALCM without major changes while we wait for some 4.5 and 5 gen A/C to be inducted into the service. The only justification of buying mirage 2000s is some dirt cheap price with the given capabilities.

i would say that J-10 with AESA could be a better option with soft loan since only 2 squadrons will be required

 

[I M Sikander]

I don't understand the PAF mindset it like 1 step forward 10 steps back.

JF 17 Programme launched to replace aging fleet of F 7 and mirages

Than what is the use of wasting money on similar type of jets like mirages when JF 17 Can do the similar either accept JF 17 is not good enough

People here use to justify PAF dont want to have 3 different type of jets because of logistics etc wastages

Sometime PAF want F 16 Than J 10 and now Mirages

Instead of buying a jet which has half the life left it is better to buy 1 SU 35 out of 2 MIRAGES

if Qatar is not happy with these jet performances and they not have threat either still they want to discard them tell me how in world we have threat from east to west yet we buy old rust

Nut people are running PAF

Simplly because Pak has ready infrastructure of mirage.
Secondly qatri mirages are much better than Mirage Rose III and V in current Paf inventory.
F sola, thunder and mirages will remain the back bone of Paf for the next 2 decades.

 

[Falcon26]

man this was hilarious

acha sorry... F sola and PAF's love for it it's not gonna end in 30 years from now.. Even today if US offer PAF F- SOLA PAF will run to grab them



JF-17 can't carry Ra'ad under it's belly. we have to place it on the wings of JF-17 but by doing that Fuel tanks would be dropped reducing the range of JF-17

5th generation is not coming till a decade forget 5th generation now. Chinese J-31 is not Ready yet Turkish on is in Designs only do you see any other country?

This is why I never understood why PAF never seriously looked into the Turkish SOM. When I asked this question, I was greeted with " Our Ra'ad is much better," none sense. Truth is the Ra'ad is just too bulky and heavy for the JF-17. A SOM equipped JF-17 complimented by Chinese derivatives of the Sukhois will do wonders protecting Pakistan SLOC. The sooner PAF looks towards the SOM the better, rather than pursue convenient and predictable routes that yield minimum returns.

 

[Sinnerman108]

Someone is pocketing a large sum of money here.

Are you making this oblique reference to the sword man ?

 

[The SC]

Assuming this rumour is correct, then the PAF talking to Qatar doesn't mean UAE is out of the mix. The PAF could potentially be talking to both (as well as France) and be on the look out for a decent number of M2K-5/9s. It'd be an excellent strike platform.

UAE Mirage deal is somewhat complicated.. I even think that Pakistan , either didn't want them or they were two expansive for second hand fighters..rumors are circulating that UAE wants to gift some to Iraq, and sell some to Egypt..

 

[ziaulislam]

Second hand F-16s would make sense but second hand Mirage-2000s?

unlikley even if offered free

Anyone else thinking this is the post-Mirage ROSE Ra'ad solution? @Bratva @JamD

isnt this kinda stupid, instead of fixing the missile we are buying a new plane!

unless Raad is dedicated nuclear missile and we cannt fit/make a smaller nuclear missile to fic in thunder(which doesnt make sense as raad can certainly elongated, modified, folding wings blah blah )

even if qatar offer them for free it would still be a big issue setting up infrastructure for them, as they are not in abundant no., unless we are expecting to get some cheaper from both qatar and UAE , than may be....

but who knows army and air force in the past have made decisions that doesnt make sense to us folk

Someone is pocketing a large sum of money here.

this make sense

 

[The SC]

So for carrying Ra'ad, a new aircraft is required still.

This can be worked out in two ways:

First: Changing weapon (Ra'ad) dynamics

1. Next version of Ra'ad can be designed to to be carried by JF-17 underbelly. If thats still not possible due to low height of JF-17 then the new version of Ra'ad should be made considering J-31 as platform keeping in mind the size of internal bays.
A smaller design challenge would be a compromise between payload or range. Either a smaller warhead but comparatively larger fuel capacity or a large warhead but smaller fuel capacity. In either case, the range wont match 350 km of current Ra'ad version, probably 150km or 250km, but it will definitely more stealthy.

2. If PAF wants a newer version of Ra'ad with 500-750 km range, means larger size and more weight. In such case a preferable platform would be a twin engine jet. Probably an aircraft that could carry two.

Second: Changing the delivery system (Aircraft)

1. If a new aircraft is acquired would the cost be justified. Mirage 2000 is a cheaper to buy option, agreed, but it brings a few issues with itself too.

a. Old airframes means it will need to be replaced earlier than a new aircraft so its a short term solution. service lifetime is lesser than a new aircraft.

b. Facilities will be upgraded to induct training sims, pilot training, spare part acquisition, upgrade of avionics (at some stage), engine overhaul and other maintenance issues. (This is all cost related)

c. It doesnt have an AESA but does have HMDS/MICA IR/MBDA Apache/and other French related weaponry, apart from being a good (not excellent) substitute for PN naval mirages.

d. The upgraded versions of JF-17 could have benefited more from Rafale induction than Mirage 2000. If this open doors for best French avionics and weapons suite for JF-17 at some stage, then its a great option, however, Chinese are catching up fast in this area too and will provide cheaper(loan etc) and hassle-free( no strings) acquisition of next gen weapons and avionics for JF-17.

2. Considering SU35 or EFT. In longer run, these aircrafts offer much more than Mirage 2000 in every aspect. I wont go in details as they have been discussed many times. I am not sure if induction of Ra'ad would be an issue with these 2 types of a/c.
I will vouch for J-10 also.

3. 5th gen is the future, will PAF always use 4 or 4.5 gen aircraft for delivery of Ra'ad. When J-31 will be inducted, its stealth characteristics make it the best platform to carry Ra'ad (preferable Internally).

The only problem is that PAF can buy 12 Mirage 2000-5 for the price of 2 SU-35 or 1 EFT!!!
And let's say a Squadron of 2000-9 for about 400 million which is the price of 4 SU-35..
Of course these deals will help in acquiring some SU-35s when they become available - not before 2022/24 -
EFT or Rafale will depend on how the economy will perform after CPEC is completed..

 

[untitled]

After 50 years:

PAF is the largest operator of EF-2000.

LOL PAF will have reached full circle then.
Almost after a 120 years PAF will have another British aircraft as its front line jet fighter since the retirement of the Supermarine Attacker

 

[jupiter2007]

we are getting two squardons of 5th gen and thus apart from 150 PAKFA all IAF will be target practice for us...by your logic

cost...cost..cost

depends what terms qatar has..anything even near expensive as much as second f-16 will be a staight no..

and this is regardless very unlikley in first place

PAKFA is not coming anytime soon, not until 2025 if the deal goes through. Please don't think that Pakistan's Strategic defense planners are stupid and damn. They are well aware of the India's capabilities and will adjust accordingly.
Pakistan will never be able to match the # of planes in Indian inventory but we can match on technology and capabilities.

Just a FYI, JF-17 block 2 is already in production, block 3 design work almost completed, getting ready for the block 3 by 2018, and possibly block 4 by 2021.

Pakistan will consider all option for the 5th generation plane, J-31 is the main contender at this time.

 

[JamD]

Anyone else thinking this is the post-Mirage ROSE Ra'ad solution? @Bratva @JamD

I don't think so. It would be so much cheaper to modify the ra'ad than to induct a whole new weapon system for it.

I understand our mirages have few hours left in them but I would rather spend money on the Ra'ad + jf17 rather than an ad-hoc temporary solution like m2k.

Also, many members are saying we have familiarity with mirages like mirage 2k is just an upgraded mirage 3. It is an entirely different aircraft which is a generation apart and the only thing it shares with the mirage 3 is the delta design and the name. It's exactly like saying since we have experience with f16 we are already equipped to induct the f35.

I agree with @Oscar, if this deal is real and goes through there is someone making money out there.

 

[New Resolve]

This would be a brilliant move if true, M2k-5 is a extremely good strike fighter and can hold its own in air to air as well. A very quick/affordable way to get a huge tech leap and replacing the outdated Mirage 5.

 

[Max]

Indians are operating them for decades.. we should better try J-10 with AESA or look for 48 mig 35..

 

[GR!FF!N]

Qatari Mirages are Mirage-2000-5 standard,right?Why don't Pakistan go for UAE Mirages?Decent number and extensively refurbished.That makes sense.But inducting only 9 mirages,that too well past of its half service life,It is already 20+ years old.

 

[50cent]

PAKFA is not coming anytime soon, not until 2025 if the deal goes through. Please don't think that Pakistan's Strategic defense planners are stupid and damn. They are well aware of the India's capabilities and will adjust accordingly.
Pakistan will never be able to match the # of planes in Indian inventory but we can match on technology and capabilities.

Just a FYI, JF-17 block 2 is already in production, block 3 design work almost completed, getting ready for the block 3 by 2018, and possibly block 4 by 2021.

Pakistan will consider all option for the 5th generation plane, J-31 is the main contender . this time.

Pakfa is combat ready it is already deployed to crimea.j31 Chinese's stealth tech is least one generation behind russian,f 35 is only reliable option for us

 

[SSGPA1]

1. Great decision as PAF is manufacturing less than 30 JF-17 each year and it will take years to replace each Mirage 3 and 5.
   
2. We are experts on Mirage and integration will be easy plus low maintenance costs.
3. Pakistan is a major LPG client of Qatar so the deal will be easier to complete. This deal will open door for Mirage deals with other Gulf states.
   
4. Keep in mind that we don’t have to replace each Mirage 3 and 5 as each Mirage 2000 can take the work load of multiple Mirage 3/5.
   
5. As far as India is concerned, their upgrades will take longer than anticipated and TEJAS still have 50 plus issues to be fixed.
   
6. PAF’s majority fighters will be JF17 with Mirage for the naval airspace and F16 supporting the JF17.
   
7. In the long run, PAF will have a NG fighter along with a mix of other jets in support role.