Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Armchair]

I think the key point for me here is "will". Which is open to question. When, what, etc. As Keynes once said - In the long term we are all dead.

 

[帅的一匹]

I think the key point for me here is "will". Which is open to question. When, what, etc. As Keynes once said - In the long term we are all dead.

Don't worry, PAF knows it very well.

 

[Armchair]

Don't worry, PAF knows it very well.

I don't think you know as much as you are showing yourself to be knowing.

PAF doesn't make its plans based on fantasy ifs and buts. Never has.

 

[帅的一匹]

I don't think you know as much as you are showing yourself to be knowing.

PAF doesn't make its plans based on fantasy ifs and buts. Never has.

I mean PAF definitely know where they go and development path for AZM.

They are not as blind as IAF.

 

[araz]

There are many ifs with the WS19. Too many. Compared to WS-15 which is a near finished product.
But even if all the IFs and buts were sorted, and PLAN gets J-31, it would be very small numbers compared to J-20 / J-10s.

What do we know about the WS19 other than rumours. Has a plausible engine been demonstrated seen to be undergoing testing? If testing to LRP is 5 yrs with first orders to fulfill local demand when are we likely to see the engine. Its a new engine so likely to have teething problems. Do you want to risk a new project with a new engine with all the inherent uncertainties. Logic dictates that such a project will not bear fruit till 2025. Unless PAF delinks the engine with the platform(a lot more riskier than delinking electronics,) I dont see that happening in the time frame. This remains my opinion and I could be totally wrong. Changing engines mid programme will cause delays and a lot of risks. Does PAF bite the bullet and get the EJ series 200/230(Turkish collaboration)? Or does the Red bear come up with another offering?
A

 

[Armchair]

What docwe know about the WS19 other than rumours. Has a plausible engine been demonstrated seen to be u dergoing testing? If testing to LRP is 5 yrs with first orders to fulfill local demand when are we likely to see the engine. Its a new engine so likely to have teething problems. Do you want to risk a new project with w new engine with all the inherent uncertainties. Logic dictates that such a project will not bear fruit till 2025. Unless PAF delinks the engine with the platform(a lot more riskier than delinking electronics, I dont see that happening in the time frame. This remains my opinion and I could be totally wrong. Changing engines mid programme will cause delays and a lot of risks. Does PAF bite the bullet and get the EJ series 200/230(Turkish collaboration)? Or does the Red bear come up with another offering?
A

Hi Araz,

The easiest would be to go with the WS-15 which is near mass production, and reasonably mature. But then we would be looking at a single engined program. Or a 117 based aircraft is also a possibility. If twin engines are a must, maybe just go with a new variant of the RD-93, with a potential upgrade in the future to WS-19.

I wonder what the mystery engine is for the JFT b3. that could be part of the puzzle.

 

[araz]

I mean PAF definitely know where they go and development path for AZM.

They are not as blind as IAF.

Wanlaokan.
Here the problem is slightly more complex. There will be multiple forces and pressure groups at work. To any project the engine is pivotal. No one will risk a project over a risky engine. The Chinese are just beginning to master the technique and the first engines are just coming out. When do they mature is the pivotal question. It could take them 10/15yrs to prove their reliability and class to make a name. As I understand the transition from LRP to mass production has not been made even for WS10. To say that the process will be mastered in another 3-5 yrs is a conservative but possibly realistic time frame.But that would be just the WS10.
What about WS 13/15. THERE ARE A LOT MORE UNCERTAINTIES HERE. This remains a dilemma for armchair Generals like us.
Regards
A

Hi Araz,

The easiest would be to go with the WS-15 which is near mass production, and reasonably mature. But then we would be looking at a single engined program. Or a 117 based aircraft is also a possibility. If twin engines are a must, maybe just go with a new variant of the RD-93, with a potential upgrade in the future to WS-19.

I wonder what the mystery engine is for the JFT b3. that could be part of the puzzle.

A couple of mysteries that need resolution.WS15 is known to have been around since 2009. However nothing much has been heard since then. This to me signifies problems requiring modifications and retesting. To date we have not seen any credible news that the said engine is in mass production.
On the WS 10 front we have also heard that it has achieved LRP. However it is not yet being mass produced.
Even if we assume that WS15 is at the same stage, the mass production conundrum needs to be resolved. How long does it take to reach that stage? 3-5 yrs.????
I am not certain but my assumption is that the engine on the block 3 remains an uprated RD 93.
IFyou are interested read the posts of a poster@messiach on this board. They are very revealing in the department. She indicated that there has been some changes made to the "???low pressure compressors" with a good out come. It seems the Red bear is co operating with us on the RD front as it sees money in the venture. PAF has a habit of sticking with one vendor unless there are difficulties being faced so the likelihood is the engine is an iteration of the RD93. THE MA version was not due out till 2018 but it seems some of the modifications have made it to the JFT. My 2 paisas worth.
A

 

[Captain77W]

Or they could get the RR engine being made for the TFX

 

[Armchair]

Wanlaokan.
Here the problem is slightly more complex. There will be multiple forces and pressure groups at work. To any project the engine is pivotal. No one will risk a project over a risky engine. The Chinese are just beginning to master the technique and the first engines are just coming out. When do they mature is the pivotal question. It could take them 10/15yrs to prove their reliability and class to make a name. As I understand the transition from LRP to mass production has not been made even for WS10. To say that the process will be mastered in another 3-5 yrs is a conservative but possibly realistic time frame.But that would be just the WS10.
What about WS 13/15. THERE ARE A LOT MORE UNCERTAINTIES HERE. This remains a dilemma for armchair Generals like us.
Regards
A

A couple of mysteries that need resolution.WS15 is known to have been around since 2009. However nothing much has been heard since then. This to me signifies problems requiring modifications and retesting. To date we have not seen any credible news that the said engine is in mass production.
On the WS 10 front we have also heard that it has achieved LRP. However it is not yet being mass produced.
Even if we assume that WS15 is at the same stage, the mass production conundrum needs to be resolved. How long does it take to reach that stage? 3-5 yrs.????
I am not certain but my assumption is that the engine on the block 3 remains an uprated RD 93.
IFyou are interested read the posts of a poster@messiach on this board. They are very revealing in the department. She indicated that there has been some changes made to the "???low pressure compressors" with a good out come. It seems the Red bear is co operating with us on the RD front as it sees money in the venture. PAF has a habit of sticking with one vendor unless there are difficulties being faced so the likelihood is the engine is an iteration of the RD93. THE MA version was not due out till 2018 but it seems some of the modifications have made it to the JFT. My 2 paisas worth.
A

Thanks that is very informative. As far as I know (and I am no expert), contemporary aircraft engines don't get mass produced easily because:

1. Past F-16/F-18/F-35 the numbers aren't the large
2. Most fighter engines, like most fighter aircraft are produced in batches
3. Engines today are very complex, again making mass production less likely

So very likely there are very few aircaft engines today that are truly "mass produced".
However, there are stages between traditional mass production and batch production.
but it is better to increase production rates only when an engine has been thoroughly tested and matured.

 

[帅的一匹]

Wanlaokan.
Here the problem is slightly more complex. There will be multiple forces and pressure groups at work. To any project the engine is pivotal. No one will risk a project over a risky engine. The Chinese are just beginning to master the technique and the first engines are just coming out. When do they mature is the pivotal question. It could take them 10/15yrs to prove their reliability and class to make a name. As I understand the transition from LRP to mass production has not been made even for WS10. To say that the process will be mastered in another 3-5 yrs is a conservative but possibly realistic time frame.But that would be just the WS10.
What about WS 13/15. THERE ARE A LOT MORE UNCERTAINTIES HERE. This remains a dilemma for armchair Generals like us.
Regards
A

A couple of mysteries that need resolution.WS15 is known to have been around since 2009. However nothing much has been heard since then. This to me signifies problems requiring modifications and retesting. To date we have not seen any credible news that the said engine is in mass production.
On the WS 10 front we have also heard that it has achieved LRP. However it is not yet being mass produced.
Even if we assume that WS15 is at the same stage, the mass production conundrum needs to be resolved. How long does it take to reach that stage? 3-5 yrs.????
I am not certain but my assumption is that the engine on the block 3 remains an uprated RD 93.
IFyou are interested read the posts of a poster@messiach on this board. They are very revealing in the department. She indicated that there has been some changes made to the "???low pressure compressors" with a good out come. It seems the Red bear is co operating with us on the RD front as it sees money in the venture. PAF has a habit of sticking with one vendor unless there are difficulties being faced so the likelihood is the engine is an iteration of the RD93. THE MA version was not due out till 2018 but it seems some of the modifications have made it to the JFT. My 2 paisas worth.
A

WS15 shall be ready before year 2020. That is something we can look up to.

And WS10b had entered into mass production.

Since year 2016.

We can produce 300 to 400 WS10 series per year by two assembly line. one is at Shengyang, another one is at Xi an.

What I don't know is whether AZM is a medium fighter or heavy fighter? If it's heavy fighters, it can for WS10b/WS15.

Another J10 fit WS10x just found

The first WS10 flied with J11A in year 2002, it entered mass production almost 13 years later. Very difficult, but it's a must.

J16 with two WS10G engines.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Today I day dreamed of paf getting a version of j16 called fc19.

 

[Silicon0000]

Today I day dreamed of paf getting a version of j16 called fc19.

You are opening a pandora box. Fan boys soon gonna be flooding with their wishlists.

 

[syed_yusuf]

You are opening a pandora box. Fan boys soon gonna be flooding with their wishlists.

Hahaha, yes I guess. I should just shut up ...

 

[AMCA]

Where did I mention it would be exclusively for you lot?

Come on !! we cherish the unique distinction of being your enemies.

What about a toilet??

Ever seen one??

I have , that's one of the reasons why I dont $hit in PDF like you.

 

[Manidabest]

I would suggest that PAF should join hands with Turkish Airforce in developing 5th generation fighter