Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Avicenna]

As Mastan Khan famously said: "don't wing it".



It is obvious you don't know what the term "Hangar queen" means. Hint: Its not that its "not needed".

One should always talk about things one knows about.

I could go on with the rest of the post but I think the above serves as a guide. PDF is not the place to have a loose motion.

Some good points have been raised in this thread.

Fighter development spanning from the 4th gen into now the 5th gen has become prohibitively expensive and time consuming.

Notice that 5th gen types can not replace 4th and 3rd on a 1:1 basis. Thus the 4th gen have to be upgraded and used as the "meat" while the 5th gen are the "spices".

Its a combination of systems that will be required to achieve the operational goals of the air arm.

How this will all translate is yet to be seen in a hot war in a complex threat environment.

We may see this all in action very soon in Iran. But thats a whole other topic.

Regardless, top tier air arms like the USAF and IAF (not INDIAN!), will be at the fore front of developing those tactics.

It would be wise to observe them closely.

 

[MiG-35-BD]

Some good points have been raised in this thread.

Fighter development spanning from the 4th gen into now the 5th gen has become prohibitively expensive and time consuming.

Notice that 5th gen types can not replace 4th and 3rd on a 1:1 basis. Thus the 4th gen have to be upgraded and used as the "meat" while the 5th gen are the "spices".

Its a combination of systems that will be required to achieve the operational goals of the air arm.

How this will all translate is yet to be seen in a hot war in a complex threat environment.

We may see this all in action very soon in Iran. But thats a whole other topic.

Regardless, top tier air arms like the USAF and IAF (not INDIAN!), will be at the fore front of developing those tactics.

It would be wise to observe them closely.

True. But I am favoring the view that F-22 will perform brilliantly, should it actually go into Iran. Which is looking very likely as Pompeo is brought in.

While it is great and definitely worth it to observe the US and (I assume you mean) IDF-AF, it isn't fully instructive. Truth is, a lot of countries cannot afford to build an F-22. Or F-35. Even if you borrowed tech from China.

What I am basically saying is that 5th generation doesn't have to be as LM determined it to be. Just like PAKFA has taken a different route. PAF could take a different route, something cheaper and simpler. Something easier to maintain. I believe PAF could ask the following questions:

1. Whats the minimum capability needed to meet the challenge of Indian platforms? (this also depends on what those platforms are - if Su-57 and / or JSF would be bought or not. And if bought, in what numbers.

2. Should it be twin engined? Two RD-93 / RD-33 / WS-13 could find commonality with JF-17 and help with maintenance. Or should it be single engined? Something like the 117 or WS-15 (single engined aircraft are cheaper and simpler to operate)

3. There are major tradeoffs in stealth. As we saw with the PAKFA, those tradeoffs need to be made with the home scenario in mind. So, how much RAM? Internal weapons bay? Arsenal plane? Or something in between (like semi-recessed missile carriage).

I just want to come back to the point about the Israel / US / Saudi vs Iran potential scenario. This will essentially be a battle between a Goliath and a David-with-SAMs. While neither India nor Pakistan has meaningful LRSAMs. Which is really a shame but off topic I guess. PAF vs IAF are also quite closely matched. While the Iran scenario is lopsided.

 

[Avicenna]

I feel bad for Iran quite honestly. They are no angels, but this is a war being designed by Tel Aviv.

In anycase, the term 5th generation is really just a made up classification. No formal definition exists as to what capability a platform must have to be classified as such although some would say stealth, supercruise, etc etc.

The most important thing Pakistan needs to do is to have full control over the platform and not be limited by political concerns. This is the greatest value of the JF-17 program. This will be expanded upon, inshAllah by Kamra Aviation City as well as Project Azm.

Developing a 5th gen fighter is an enormous endeavour.

Pakistan does not have the ability to do so without foreign assistance. i.e. China.

The main obvious problem is of course the engine. Ask the Chinese about that one.

I hope though progress is made in these efforts to indigenize the source of military aircraft.

Politically, the muslim world is in a very precarious state at this time.

In terms of the actual features and capabilites of the acutal 5th gen design?

Aspects of LO/Stealth, AESA, robust capability in an adverse EW environment, enhanced situational awareness, supercruise, BVR and HMS/WVR capability, adequate range, superior manuverabilty.

Every one of these features has trade offs. And all the while constrained by budget in terms of both R and D as well as actual production.

I think someone made the point about the Swedish stealth program. (Flygsystem 2020)

Perhaps Project Azm should result in something similar.

 

[Cookie Monster]

As Mastan Khan famously said: "don't wing it".

It is obvious you don't know what the term "Hangar queen" means. Hint: Its not that its "not needed".

One should always talk about things one knows about.

If u didn't understand what I meant...that's not really my problem. I didn't wing it...hangar queen isn't some super secret term that only some insiders know. It simply refers to high maintenance jets. So lets try this again...

F22 is an overkill in most situations US has faced so far. Like I said in my previous post...F22 would mostly be needed with its stealth/air superiority aspects in a contested environment well defended by SAM systems and a proper air force with potent fighter jets supported by AWACS...ground radars..basically a network centric force. In Afghan war, that US has been fighting for the past almost two decades...the above isn't the case. For most of the latter Iraq war...same applied. Besides it's limited utilization, it has limited numbers(no exports allowed either)...therefore economies of scale doesn't apply here...keeping its costs up.

Another problem is that it's slightly older 5th gen tech...so it's stealth coatings are more prone to damage by environmental conditions. Though I remember reading something about the stealth coatings developed for F35(which are longer lasting) being applied to F22s. This again highlights that US isn't carrying out R&D with the specific goal of reducing F22 maintenance cost and rectify its maintenance issues possibly bcuz of its rather limited numbers...or limited need...or both.

In comparison u can see that F35 doesn't suffer these problems...it's intended to become a mainstay(replacing F16s, F18s, etc) and taking into account its exports, the economy of scales applies here. In addition it would have a higher utilization as well as it replaces older gen aircraft in numbers as a true multirole fighter jet.

In short the point I was trying to make is that it's not like US can't overcome the maintenance issues of F22...it's just that it may not be a super high priority hence F22 remains a hangar queen.

I could go on with the rest of the post but I think the above serves as a guide. PDF is not the place to have a loose motion.

If u wish not to discuss anything further then by all means be my guest.

 

[MiG-35-BD]

I feel bad for Iran quite honestly. They are no angels, but this is a war being designed by Tel Aviv.

In anycase, the term 5th generation is really just a made up classification. No formal definition exists as to what capability a platform must have to be classified as such although some would say stealth, supercruise, etc etc.

The most important thing Pakistan needs to do is to have full control over the platform and not be limited by political concerns. This is the greatest value of the JF-17 program. This will be, inshAllah the product of Kamra Aviation City as well as Project Azm.

Developing a 5th gen fighter is an enormous endeavour.

Pakistan does not have the ability to do so without foreign assistance. i.e. China.

The main obvious problem is of course the engine. Ask the Chinese about that one.

I hope though progress is made in these efforts to indigenize the source of military aircraft.

Politically, the muslim world is in a very precarious state at this time.

In terms of the actual features and capabilites of the acutal 5th gen design?

Aspects of LO/Stealth, AESA, robust capability in an adverse EW environment, enhanced situational awareness, supercruise?, BVR and HMS/WVR capability, adequate range, superior manuverabilty.

Every one of these features has trade offs. And all the while constrained by budget in terms of both R and D as well as actual production.

I think someone made the point about the Swedish stealth program. (Flygsystem 2020)

Perhaps Project Azm should result in something similar.

Hi Avicenna,

Thanks for the thoughtful response. You bring up some interesting insights.

I agree that 5th generation is very loosely defined. And can include a few things that LM hasn't done properly even - like IRST.

I here the Block III is near LO with a Thales EW system and avionics, which suggests (I'm speculating here) a European radar. Azm can simply be a next step beyond the block III, in a larger, redesigned airframe. Advantages of a pragmatic Azm project as outlined over say F-35 could potentially be:

1. Proper IRST for hunting stealth
2. Far superior speed and maneuverability
3. Ability to carry a good load of AAMs (F-35 in actual fact today can only carry 2 AAMs, despite a smoke screen of a potential future 4 AAMs)

Disadvantages as compared to F-35

1. LO and not VLO
2. Less capable avionics and SA

Of course, this is all speculation on my part. But a balance between a stealth plane and what is increasingly being called an arsenal plane is vital. As PAF will be outnumbered and outgunned.

The big white elephant in the room, IMHO, is the lack of an LRSAM. Even a KN-06 would drastically improve the defensive posture and give JF-17s an advantage, breaking up incoming fighter formations and reducing their kinetics trying to maneuver against SAM launches.

You are right that the Muslim world is in a precarious state. Sadly. But there is also opportunity. With every challenge is an opportunity. We can see the example of Turkey here, which is barely recognizable from what it was 10 years ago. Its becoming a major and independent power on its own right. But I doubt Pakistan can do the same, except under Imran Khan. Bangladesh is basically at this point completely enslaved and our institutions infiltrated and fully controlled.

Azm will have flexibility beyond the JF-17. It will be a Pakistan project. It can borrow systems from anywhere, including Turkey, Brazil, South Africa, Russia, South Korea.

HOBS and HMDS will be part of Block III so definitely will make it to Azm.

Regarding the potential export potential of Azm:

There is no affordable stealth planes or modern arsenal planes in the market. Stealth: F-22/F-35/J-20/Su-57 and Arsenal planes: Rafale, Eurofighter, F-15, Su-35, F-16, F-18.

F-15s are really old, designed in1974. They "look" modern but are actually dated. The design is not properly upgradable to be effective.

Rafale and Eurofighter are too expensive. We even saw that India, the largest arms importer could only afford 36.

F-16s are at the end of their life.

Superhornets are too far engineered for carrier operations to be really value for money. Australia was forced to buy it because the alternative F-15 was outdated.

This leaves Su-35, the ultimate arsenal plane. The design though is compromised for high-high bvr combat, due to the airfoil and supermaneuverability requirement. Stealth needs to be designed from the ground up, it cannot be added on as a flavor, again meaning the Su-35 isn't going to do too well in that sector. Its a gigantic and complex airframe, difficult to maintain mainly due to the engines.

This means Azm has a clear market as a stealthy arsenal plane. Combining the benefits of both in moderation. "wasata".

It would also be a natural combination and upgrade to the JF-17, which already has built a market presence. PLAAF will never buy it of course, but it doesn't have to. Its not a "joint fighter". Its Pakistan's first own design.

PS: The main problem I see with having a semi-recessed carriage of AAMs in the undercarriage is where to relocate, or how to arrange the rear landing gear. If its single engined, this would be an even bigger issue due to the slender area available.

 

[Armchair]

Here are my thoughts on what the Azm project would look like based on a few strategic options:

Strategic Options 1: Single Englined (WS-15) Vs. Twin engine (WS-13 / WS-17)

The single engined option is actually the more likely option here because:
1. The WS-15 is a far more advanced engine than the WS-13, which is close to an RD-93. WS-15 is a generation ahead.
2. PAF has traditionally preferred a single engined fighter, which is what is ideal for the defensive scenario of defending Pakistan
3. Commonality with a major and to be widely used Chinese engine.

Strategic Option 2: Stealth VS Maneuverability

Stealth is not only expensive, but creates major drag and increase in weight. While the US can burn through it using a very hi-tech engine with the F-35, it still is unable to make the F-35 even equal to an F-16 in maneuverability. Making the false claim now that maneuver is not needed, something that PAF is not likely to agree, given its tradition in air combat.

PAF is looking to replace F-16s. Not develop air superiority over New Delhi. It does not need an F-35. It does LOVE the F-16. PAF basically would naturally want to build the ultimate F-16. Project Azm is most likely going to aim at being just that. Just like JFT was an 80% aim towards an F-16.

If that is correct, PAF will go for a LO design focused on being "the ultimate F-16" with some stealth features. NOT an 80% F-35.

This probably means an RCS of about 0.05 - 0.1 in the front arc.

Since this is a defensive stealth plane, unlike the F-22 and F-35, all-aspect stealth is not needed as much. You are basically designing the stealth to be effective against a frontal enemy fighter.

This in turn means an internal carriage of weapons is not necessary. The Tornado design proved this with semi-recessed carriage of weapons in various tests.

Stealth is 80% design. And Azm would be well ahead of any past such design. With semi-recessed weapons loads, PAF would gain a few key advantages:

1. Major reduction in drag, weight and complexity, due to no internal weapons bay
2. Ability to be both a LO aircraft AND an arsenal plane at the same time.

The WS-15 would provide more thrust than anything any F-16 ever had. With a progressive iteration of the JFT design enlarged and stealthified, we would see a major capability leap over any generation of F-16, while having the following advantages (say over an F-16 Block 52):
1. A faster, more maneuverable aircraft
2. A lower wing loading due to new enlarged design
3. An IRST, AESA radar, better and more powerful ECM and EW

Strategic Option 3: General Design Layout

There are basically three practical options in terms of project Azm's suitability and practicality:

1. Conventional F-16 / JF-17 / F-22 Layout
2. Delta Canard J-10/ J-20
3. Delta Twin-tail YF-23 style

Of these three options, #1 is the most likely given:
1. Low risk design
2. Closest to the F-16 (PAF's fantasy plane)
3. Excellent for commonality, allowing PAF to us Israeli training tactics of providing part of the air-time training on the JF-17 / F-16.

If all of the above reasoning is correct, we will have (under the most likely scenario):
1. A single engined, conventional layout fighter
2. WS-15 engine
3. LO of around 0.05 - 0.1 RCS, mainly for frontal RCS not all aspect
4. Semi-recessed missiles rather than internal weapons bay.

just my thoughts.

 

[Army research]

Here are my thoughts on what the Azm project would look like based on a few strategic options:

Strategic Options 1: Single Englined (WS-15) Vs. Twin engine (WS-13 / WS-17)

The single engined option is actually the more likely option here because:
1. The WS-15 is a far more advanced engine than the WS-13, which is close to an RD-93. WS-15 is a generation ahead.
2. PAF has traditionally preferred a single engined fighter, which is what is ideal for the defensive scenario of defending Pakistan
3. Commonality with a major and to be widely used Chinese engine.

Strategic Option 2: Stealth VS Maneuverability

Stealth is not only expensive, but creates major drag and increase in weight. While the US can burn through it using a very hi-tech engine with the F-35, it still is unable to make the F-35 even equal to an F-16 in maneuverability. Making the false claim now that maneuver is not needed, something that PAF is not likely to agree, given its tradition in air combat.

PAF is looking to replace F-16s. Not develop air superiority over New Delhi. It does not need an F-35. It does LOVE the F-16. PAF basically would naturally want to build the ultimate F-16. Project Azm is most likely going to aim at being just that. Just like JFT was an 80% aim towards an F-16.

If that is correct, PAF will go for a LO design focused on being "the ultimate F-16" with some stealth features. NOT an 80% F-35.

This probably means an RCS of about 0.05 - 0.1 in the front arc.

Since this is a defensive stealth plane, unlike the F-22 and F-35, all-aspect stealth is not needed as much. You are basically designing the stealth to be effective against a frontal enemy fighter.

This in turn means an internal carriage of weapons is not necessary. The Tornado design proved this with semi-recessed carriage of weapons in various tests.

Stealth is 80% design. And Azm would be well ahead of any past such design. With semi-recessed weapons loads, PAF would gain a few key advantages:

1. Major reduction in drag, weight and complexity, due to no internal weapons bay
2. Ability to be both a LO aircraft AND an arsenal plane at the same time.

The WS-15 would provide more thrust than anything any F-16 ever had. With a progressive iteration of the JFT design enlarged and stealthified, we would see a major capability leap over any generation of F-16, while having the following advantages (say over an F-16 Block 52):
1. A faster, more maneuverable aircraft
2. A lower wing loading due to new enlarged design
3. An IRST, AESA radar, better and more powerful ECM and EW

Strategic Option 3: General Design Layout

There are basically three practical options in terms of project Azm's suitability and practicality:

1. Conventional F-16 / JF-17 / F-22 Layout
2. Delta Canard J-10/ J-20
3. Delta Twin-tail YF-23 style

Of these three options, #1 is the most likely given:
1. Low risk design
2. Closest to the F-16 (PAF's fantasy plane)
3. Excellent for commonality, allowing PAF to us Israeli training tactics of providing part of the air-time training on the JF-17 / F-16.

If all of the above reasoning is correct, we will have (under the most likely scenario):
1. A single engined, conventional layout fighter
2. WS-15 engine
3. LO of around 0.05 - 0.1 RCS, mainly for frontal RCS not all aspect
4. Semi-recessed missiles rather than internal weapons bay.

just my thoughts.

The engine will be dual , if you don't agree wait a few years

 

[Armchair]

The engine will be dual , if you don't agree wait a few years

Insider knowledge or just an opinion?

 

[Army research]

Insider knowledge or just an opinion?

Take it as a bit of both but more towards the former.
Kudos
Also just to confirm it's not based of info from dubious sources like fb.
And to understand why dual engine , azm will form the qualitive offensive edge of the paf, dual engine means it's shorter take off, more load capacity , more safe , also if you look at it from ease of design point of view , azm will be a new design with Chinese ' assistance ' and the Chinese only have experience in dual engine 5th gen craft really it will be developed quicker compared to single engine stealth fighter ( I also wanted a single engine stealth fighter personally).
Hopefully generation 5.5 or later but who knows what advances are made by then

 

[Taimoor Khan]

The engine will be dual , if you don't agree wait a few years

With double vertical stabilizers.

 

[Army research]

With double vertical stabilizers.

Didn't bother to ask about that ,
Sorry
Or if what you're saying is a fact then thanks

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Didn't bother to ask about that ,
Sorry
Or if what you're saying is a fact then thanks

Just wait for few years. The monster that will come out from PAC will cause heart attack to the enemies of Pakistan.

 

[jupiter2007]

Just wait for few years. The monster that will come out from PAC will cause heart attack to the enemies of Pakistan.

unki tu abhi se dhotiya gqndi ho gai han, bhaya kya jan se marne ka irada hai

 

[Taimoor Khan]

unki tu abhi se dhotiya gqndi ho gai han, bhaya kya jan se marne ka irada hai

Nice DP you got.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Just wait for few years. The monster that will come out from PAC will cause heart attack to the enemies of Pakistan.

No heart attack for them...some Raj47 expert will show them that it's just CGI. They will instead be jumping up and down thinking themselves victorious...somehow.