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Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

I think PAF does not have the funds for a full fledged 5th generation, high risk and high cost program. What it is good at is taking sensible, low risk and pragmatic solutions.

This can easily be done with a LO design, based on the aerodynamics of the JF-17 but with either twin RD-33s (or chinese equivalent WS-13) or with a single engined WS-15.

Pragmatic stealth would include moderate RCS reduction to 0.1m2 and a semi-recessed carrying of weapons rather than a dedicated weapons bay. Would be good to see an IRST and HMDS with HOBS.

For Bangladesh my hope for a program would not be to go for 5th generation, but to buy the production and patent rights to the F-7G. Put some ram paint, a small AESA, an IRST, HOBS missile and something like the R-Darter or Mica as BVR.
 
I think PAF does not have the funds for a full fledged 5th generation, high risk and high cost program. What it is good at is taking sensible, low risk and pragmatic solutions.

This can easily be done with a LO design, based on the aerodynamics of the JF-17 but with either twin RD-33s (or chinese equivalent WS-13) or with a single engined WS-15.

Pragmatic stealth would include moderate RCS reduction to 0.1m2 and a semi-recessed carrying of weapons rather than a dedicated weapons bay. Would be good to see an IRST and HMDS with HOBS.

For Bangladesh my hope for a program would not be to go for 5th generation, but to buy the production and patent rights to the F-7G. Put some ram paint, a small AESA, an IRST, HOBS missile and something like the R-Darter or Mica as BVR.
An old design...that may not have a powerful enough engine for an aesa radar. Bangladesh can easily acquire J10s that already have AESA, IRST, BVRs...not sure about HOBS missiles. It would cost more per unit than F7 but it would give u a lot more bang for the buck. In my opinion acquiring F7 would be a lost cause...they would be obsolete in their current state and if efforts are made to significantly modernize them as u suggested then it would raise the cost per unit...at which point it might just be better to get J10s. I read some news about BAF acquiring J10s...just go for some more if funds become available. Having one multirole platform in numbers is better than having two(J10 and F7)...it would cause unnecessary complications like different maintenance infrastructure and what not.

As for u mentioning that Pak not going for a full fledged 5th gen...I would be disappointed if that's the case. PAF can sacrifice buying some gen 4++ aircraft as a stop gap measure...bide its time with JF17s for now...and put in a maximum effort towards Azm. It would be a shame if it comes out to be a half baked product...but I guess only time will tell.
 
PAF did a make a Engine of Jf-17 thunders .. in Kamra ? think and then Answer..

And two Seat Jf-17 thunder ? South Africa. Are involved and PAF Pilots on Jf-17s fighter aircraft doing danger munavers for two Seated Models. And one Crashed near Attock and Pilot Squadron-Leader Muhammad Hussain Shaheed in that crash… GR Lock rise up to G-19… it too much for any human. .. Jf-17s it is very big achievement.. but still under development. …and Again Funds Problems….in these circumstances how PAF start 5th Generation State of the Art Machine
 
I think PAF does not have the funds for a full fledged 5th generation, high risk and high cost program. What it is good at is taking sensible, low risk and pragmatic solutions.

This can easily be done with a LO design, based on the aerodynamics of the JF-17 but with either twin RD-33s (or chinese equivalent WS-13) or with a single engined WS-15.

Pragmatic stealth would include moderate RCS reduction to 0.1m2 and a semi-recessed carrying of weapons rather than a dedicated weapons bay. Would be good to see an IRST and HMDS with HOBS.

For Bangladesh my hope for a program would not be to go for 5th generation, but to buy the production and patent rights to the F-7G. Put some ram paint, a small AESA, an IRST, HOBS missile and something like the R-Darter or Mica as BVR.
Pakistan is not a poor country it has poor governance.
Paksitan cannot afford not to have a powerful independent airforce. Already 90 percent of the need of the airforce are in-house. We need a fi
PAF did a make a Engine of Jf-17 thunders .. in Kamra ? think and then Answer..

And two Seat Jf-17 thunder ? South Africa. Are involved and PAF Pilots on Jf-17s fighter aircraft doing danger munavers for two Seated Models. And one Crashed near Attock and Pilot Squadron-Leader Muhammad Hussain Shaheed in that crash… GR Lock rise up to G-19… it too much for any human. .. Jf-17s it is very big achievement.. but still under development. …and Again Funds Problems….in these circumstances how PAF start 5th Generation State of the Art Machine

What are You smoking. I want some.....19G....loool do you know what design envelope they work to?. Please stop writing rubbish
 
PAF did a make a Engine of Jf-17 thunders .. in Kamra ? think and then Answer..

And two Seat Jf-17 thunder ? South Africa. Are involved and PAF Pilots on Jf-17s fighter aircraft doing danger munavers for two Seated Models. And one Crashed near Attock and Pilot Squadron-Leader Muhammad Hussain Shaheed in that crash… GR Lock rise up to G-19… it too much for any human. .. Jf-17s it is very big achievement.. but still under development. …and Again Funds Problems….in these circumstances how PAF start 5th Generation State of the Art Machine

Pakistan bought the JF-17 engine, the RD-93, from China, which had bought them from Russian. Now we are directly buying them from Russia.
PAF is not doing any "dangerous" maneuvers in JF-17B. It just arrived in Pakistan this month and is going to be tested to validate flight parameters, avionics, FBW system and how it responds to different flight regimes, weapon loads etc etc.
The crash you mentioned was of a single seat ... and not because of any G-locks but pilot disorientation and flew into the ground.
For the 5th Gen program, better ask the PAF how they are going to do it because they seem to think they can.
 
An old design...that may not have a powerful enough engine for an aesa radar. Bangladesh can easily acquire J10s that already have AESA, IRST, BVRs...not sure about HOBS missiles. It would cost more per unit than F7 but it would give u a lot more bang for the buck. In my opinion acquiring F7 would be a lost cause...they would be obsolete in their current state and if efforts are made to significantly modernize them as u suggested then it would raise the cost per unit...at which point it might just be better to get J10s. I read some news about BAF acquiring J10s...just go for some more if funds become available. Having one multirole platform in numbers is better than having two(J10 and F7)...it would cause unnecessary complications like different maintenance infrastructure and what not.

As for u mentioning that Pak not going for a full fledged 5th gen...I would be disappointed if that's the case. PAF can sacrifice buying some gen 4++ aircraft as a stop gap measure...bide its time with JF17s for now...and put in a maximum effort towards Azm. It would be a shame if it comes out to be a half baked product...but I guess only time will tell.

I think Gen 5 has many issues of costs and maintainability and may not be optimal. Till now we have had:

1. F-22, sounds great, great propaganda and marketing but known in the USAF as a hangar queen, due to over-engineering, over-complexity, RAM issues, etc. As few as 90 are combat capable and cost close to 70,000 USD per hour of flight.

2. F-35. A slow, overly complex, poorly maneuverable attack plane with short legs. Most expensive plane in history costing 1.5 trillion USD.

3. J-20 (unknown, too new to make an analysis of)

So everything is not working out in the world of the Lockheed Martin invented "5th Gen"

Pakistan or any third world country cannot afford to make such a giant gamble. Nor should it want to make a joke of itself with a "Qahar 313" or some other such rubbish.

What it needs is a low-risk, pragmatic and effective platform using the KISS principle.

Using the basic layout of the JF-17 would mean pilots of the Azm fighter can train using JF-17s, lowering costs of operation, training, etc.

A bigger brother of the JF-17 would use essentially the same FBW system, tweaked. This would considerably reduce the time, effort and cost. We can see the LCA making the fatal mistake here.

A stealthy, larger JF-17 would be an effective platform against India. Would cost less. Would cost less money and time to develop. Would be less risky. And would be very easy to maintain, operate and train with.

Just as Israel trains its F-15 pilots partly on simulators, partly on F-16s, the PAF would take it further and have such commonality that pilots could train easily using the JF-17, saving the Azm's airframe for an extended service life, low cost of operations and ease of pilot transition.

These are just my thoughts, opinions, wish, etc. I have no actual idea or inside source of what the PAF is doing.
 
I think Gen 5 has many issues of costs and maintainability and may not be optimal. Till now we have had:

1. F-22, sounds great, great propaganda and marketing but known in the USAF as a hangar queen, due to over-engineering, over-complexity, RAM issues, etc. As few as 90 are combat capable and cost close to 70,000 USD per hour of flight.

2. F-35. A slow, overly complex, poorly maneuverable attack plane with short legs. Most expensive plane in history costing 1.5 trillion USD.
F22 does cost a lot but it has all the bells and whistles. US can afford the over complexity and over engineering and it's not like all that extra tech isn't helpful to them. F22 gave US an edge over all the other air forces on earth...an edge they have had for a long time and there's still hardly any fighter jet that can challenge that after all these decades. I'm not calling other jets like J20 inferior...it's just that their abilities are yet to be seen. So far at least on paper and what's available online...F22 is still the best fighter jet though very costly.

As for the hangar queen part...well I would just like to say that no one should doubt USA's defense capabilities. It's not like they can't resolve any issues should they come up. I think it's most likely due to the fact that F22 is hardly needed. In the Afghan war, there is no Air Force they are facing and no SAMs. For the Afghan war...they can literally do all they need to do with armed drones and F16s, F15s, and other 4th gen jets. So why would they spend extra to utilize F22s there?

Before this there was Iraq war where the F22 may have been needed due to Iraq having a lot better capabilities in terms of Air Force and air defense systems...but even in that case US quickly established its control over Iraqi airspace and F22 wasn't needed for much of the latter part of the war.

Then there is Syria, which is complicated with all the different warring parties and US isn't really fully involved there so F22 would be sparingly needed if at all. In short the F22 would only be needed in challenging well defended air spaces facing foes that have a good and proper Air Force. In absence of that US can just use other aircrafts which will do the job just as well at a lower cost...and hence hangar queen...but not due to a lack of capability on part of the US.

F35 had cost overruns bcuz it was to be provided to multiple partner countries that each had their own needs. On top of that Israel wanted its own avionics in Israeli F35s...and to complicate it further, they also wanted STOVL capability in the same aircraft(combining the needs of USAF and USN). When a 5th gen fighter jet was designed without all these complications, the result was the F22 and YF23...both with remarkable capabilities and though still challenging but without any project complications like that of F35.

3. J-20 (unknown, too new to make an analysis of)

So everything is not working out in the world of the Lockheed Martin invented "5th Gen"
It was China's first attempt and they had a lot of catching up to do. In any case it remains to be seen if there's any major issues with the J20 or if it was a success.

Pakistan or any third world country cannot afford to make such a giant gamble. Nor should it want to make a joke of itself with a "Qahar 313" or some other such rubbish.

What it needs is a low-risk, pragmatic and effective platform using the KISS principle.
Yes obviously Pakistan isn't as well off as the countries who currently have designed/produced 5th gen fighter jets and so a low risk project would be best. This is where China and possibly Turkey come in. China has already designed many of the technologies that go into a 5th gen fighter jet and Turkey has many experienced companies with a history of designing/producing avionics. This is where the low risk comes in...Pakistan wouldn't have to reinvent the wheel and can utilize a lot of the already established capabilities.

Using the basic layout of the JF-17 would mean pilots of the Azm fighter can train using JF-17s, lowering costs of operation, training, etc.

A bigger brother of the JF-17 would use essentially the same FBW system, tweaked. This would considerably reduce the time, effort and cost. We can see the LCA making the fatal mistake here.
The LCA was a blunder bcuz of two main reasons
1) At first India tried to develop every single aspect of it by itself and hence reinventing the wheel where it wasn't necessary. They could've instead taken a step by step approach like doing a JV with some country

2) Bcuz they tried to develop everything for it domestically, it took time...a relatively long time. Long enough that by that time, the previously agreed upon design/capabilities/avionics of the aircraft would have become obsolete by the time it would go to production. So the goal post was moved...now the new goal was to make it comparable to the modern aircraft currently on the market. This cat and mouse game happened for a while until recently where it was just forced down the throats of their air force.

A third possible reason could be the kickbacks IAF and some politicians/bureaucrats receive by purchasing foreign aircrafts, which may have caused intentional delays of LCA, picking foreign aircrafts instead. Though that's just speculation.

A stealthy, larger JF-17 would be an effective platform against India. Would cost less. Would cost less money and time to develop. Would be less risky. And would be very easy to maintain, operate and train with.

Just as Israel trains its F-15 pilots partly on simulators, partly on F-16s, the PAF would take it further and have such commonality that pilots could train easily using the JF-17, saving the Azm's airframe for an extended service life, low cost of operations and ease of pilot transition.

These are just my thoughts, opinions, wish, etc. I have no actual idea or inside source of what the PAF is doing.
A half baked and not truly 5th gen platform would honestly be just a waste of money. What's the use of an aircraft that's not fully stealthy? It will be detected. An example would be F15 Silent Eagle...it's LO from the frontal aspect and has some limited stealth from the sides and back...but in how many situations will it be facing enemy radar from the frontal aspect only? It just becomes an unnecessary cost for a useless partial stealth. That's why no Air Force on earth has inducted a half assed stealth fighter. They chose to spend more to get true stealth or stick with 4++ gen like Su35, Typhoon, Rafale, F16(newer blocks), F15(newer blocks...not silent eagle), etc. So Pak would then be better off with 4++ gen fighters altogether in terms of more bang for the buck.

What Pak can do instead(to save money) is currently stick with JF17 and other platforms it has. Skip over the current need of acquiring 4++ gen fighters for now and put that money towards a true 5th gen platform. Moreover Pak can keep the costs low by excluding certain things like TVC, or unnecessary things like the F35 has where the pilot can see through and around the aircraft(bcuz of cameras placed all around it) and by making it single engine(lower per unit cost/lower operating and maintenance cost). Azm can be the single engine multirole platform and Pak can acquire twin engine TFX/FC31/or J20 if possible for air superiority(with TVC) and longer strike range...together they can form the high/low combo with Azm being the backbone much like JF17 is now.
 
Pakistan bought the JF-17 engine, the RD-93, from China, which had bought them from Russian. Now we are directly buying them from Russia.
PAF is not doing any "dangerous" maneuvers in JF-17B. It just arrived in Pakistan this month and is going to be tested to validate flight parameters, avionics, FBW system and how it responds to different flight regimes, weapon loads etc etc.
The crash you mentioned was of a single seat ... and not because of any G-locks but pilot disorientation and flew into the ground.
For the 5th Gen program, better ask the PAF how they are going to do it because they seem to think they can.
Thanks a lot that is great information Thank you sir
 
I am curious about
  • Design of aircraft
  • Composite material
  • radar
  • Engine
  • Vertical landing and take off
  • avionics
Currently all of the above mentioned things are taken from different countries for JF 17 block 3. How is it possible for Pakistan to produce these Gems in Pakistan through R & D for project AZM. Big challenge (AZM) for PAF. :pakistan:
 
Not all of these will be produced in Pakistan. And why do you have vertical take-off and landing on your list?
 
An old design...that may not have a powerful enough engine for an aesa radar. Bangladesh can easily acquire J10s that already have AESA, IRST, BVRs...not sure about HOBS missiles. It would cost more per unit than F7 but it would give u a lot more bang for the buck. In my opinion acquiring F7 would be a lost cause...they would be obsolete in their current state and if efforts are made to significantly modernize them as u suggested then it would raise the cost per unit...at which point it might just be better to get J10s. I read some news about BAF acquiring J10s...just go for some more if funds become available. Having one multirole platform in numbers is better than having two(J10 and F7)...it would cause unnecessary complications like different maintenance infrastructure and what not.

As for u mentioning that Pak not going for a full fledged 5th gen...I would be disappointed if that's the case. PAF can sacrifice buying some gen 4++ aircraft as a stop gap measure...bide its time with JF17s for now...and put in a maximum effort towards Azm. It would be a shame if it comes out to be a half baked product...but I guess only time will tell.

Hi,

Sacrifice buying 4+++ gen aircraft for a 5th gen aircraft means that you are buying a pair of pants but don't have an underwear---so when you have a lose and wet fa-rt---some of the sh-it may roll down your legs---.

Or if you have large 'heave'---then the contents may soil pants---your shoes and feet and the ground as well.
 
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Hi,

Sacrifice buying 4+++ gen aircraft for a 5th gen aircraft means that you are buying a pair of pants but don't have an underwear---so when you have a lose and wet fa-rt---some of the sh-it may roll down your legs---or if you have large 'heave'---then the contents may soil your shoes and feet and the ground as well.
Amazingly detailed and graphic analogy u used...

You should look at my post in context of what Mig35 - BD was saying and read my whole response. He suggested that because 5th gen fighter jet development programs cost a lot and Pak having limited funds...Azm may end up not being truly 5th gen. In response I said that if the end product comes out to be a watered down version after all the investment and effort then that's a waste. I would rather have PAF save money in other ways and go all in on Azm.

It's due to this reason I suggested that if money is so tight then perhaps PAF can forego purchasing an interim 4++ gen fighter(which was being considered according to a few reports) and instead just get by with the current inventory of F16s, JF17s...and use the money freed up by not purchasing the 4++ gen aircraft to focus on things like JF17 Block III and Azm. This is of course not an official PAF statement/decision...I don't know the actual budgetary/financial details of PAF. This was more of a way of saying that the priority should be self reliance(through JF17 and Azm...as much as possible).

An interim measure to cover the needs for now is just plugging holes as new leaks continue to pop up...and not a proper solution. I'm well aware of IAF's growing prowess in terms of quality and quantity. I know that PAF needs a counter for Rafale(for which the acquisition process should start already if the purchase of a 4++ gen fighter jet is indeed the route PAF is going to take)...but then again I have to be realistic. Pak is not an oil rich country like Qatar that can afford to buy fighter jets left and right without caring much about the cost. I hope that clarifies why I said what I said above.
 
Amazingly detailed and graphic analogy u used...

You should look at my post in context of what Mig35 - BD was saying and read my whole response. He suggested that because 5th gen fighter jet development programs cost a lot and Pak having limited funds...Azm may end up not being truly 5th gen. In response I said that if the end product comes out to be a watered down version after all the investment and effort then that's a waste. I would rather have PAF save money in other ways and go all in on Azm.

It's due to this reason I suggested that if money is so tight then perhaps PAF can forego purchasing an interim 4++ gen fighter(which was being considered according to a few reports) and instead just get by with the current inventory of F16s, JF17s...and use the money freed up by not purchasing the 4++ gen aircraft to focus on things like JF17 Block III and Azm. This is of course not an official PAF statement/decision...I don't know the actual budgetary/financial details of PAF. This was more of a way of saying that the priority should be self reliance(through JF17 and Azm...as much as possible).

An interim measure to cover the needs for now is just plugging holes as new leaks continue to pop up...and not a proper solution. I'm well aware of IAF's growing prowess in terms of quality and quantity. I know that PAF needs a counter for Rafale(for which the acquisition process should start already if the purchase of a 4++ gen fighter jet is indeed the route PAF is going to take)...but then again I have to be realistic. Pak is not an oil rich country like Qatar that can afford to buy fighter jets left and right without caring much about the cost. I hope that clarifies why I said what I said above.

Hi,

I read both the posts---I just wanted to have some fun---.
 
As Mastan Khan famously said: "don't wing it".

As for the hangar queen part...well I would just like to say that no one should doubt USA's defense capabilities. It's not like they can't resolve any issues should they come up. I think it's most likely due to the fact that F22 is hardly needed. In the Afghan war, there is no Air Force they are facing and no SAMs. For the Afghan war...they can literally do all they need to do with armed drones and F16s, F15s, and other 4th gen jets. So why would they spend extra to utilize F22s there?
.

It is obvious you don't know what the term "Hangar queen" means. Hint: Its not that its "not needed".

One should always talk about things one knows about.

I could go on with the rest of the post but I think the above serves as a guide. PDF is not the place to have a loose motion.
 
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