Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[AMCA]

Just wait for few years. The monster that will come out from PAC will cause heart attack to the enemies of Pakistan.

Stealth fighter is an over kill to give us a heart attack. A decent moped would do for your range.

 

[Mrc]

Stealth fighter is an over kill to give us a heart attack. A decent moped would

do for your range.

What about a toilet??

Ever seen one??

 

[syed_yusuf]

Here are my thoughts on what the Azm project would look like based on a few strategic options:

Strategic Options 1: Single Englined (WS-15) Vs. Twin engine (WS-13 / WS-17)

The single engined option is actually the more likely option here because:
1. The WS-15 is a far more advanced engine than the WS-13, which is close to an RD-93. WS-15 is a generation ahead.
2. PAF has traditionally preferred a single engined fighter, which is what is ideal for the defensive scenario of defending Pakistan
3. Commonality with a major and to be widely used Chinese engine.

Strategic Option 2: Stealth VS Maneuverability

Stealth is not only expensive, but creates major drag and increase in weight. While the US can burn through it using a very hi-tech engine with the F-35, it still is unable to make the F-35 even equal to an F-16 in maneuverability. Making the false claim now that maneuver is not needed, something that PAF is not likely to agree, given its tradition in air combat.

PAF is looking to replace F-16s. Not develop air superiority over New Delhi. It does not need an F-35. It does LOVE the F-16. PAF basically would naturally want to build the ultimate F-16. Project Azm is most likely going to aim at being just that. Just like JFT was an 80% aim towards an F-16.

If that is correct, PAF will go for a LO design focused on being "the ultimate F-16" with some stealth features. NOT an 80% F-35.

This probably means an RCS of about 0.05 - 0.1 in the front arc.

Since this is a defensive stealth plane, unlike the F-22 and F-35, all-aspect stealth is not needed as much. You are basically designing the stealth to be effective against a frontal enemy fighter.

This in turn means an internal carriage of weapons is not necessary. The Tornado design proved this with semi-recessed carriage of weapons in various tests.

Stealth is 80% design. And Azm would be well ahead of any past such design. With semi-recessed weapons loads, PAF would gain a few key advantages:

1. Major reduction in drag, weight and complexity, due to no internal weapons bay
2. Ability to be both a LO aircraft AND an arsenal plane at the same time.

The WS-15 would provide more thrust than anything any F-16 ever had. With a progressive iteration of the JFT design enlarged and stealthified, we would see a major capability leap over any generation of F-16, while having the following advantages (say over an F-16 Block 52):
1. A faster, more maneuverable aircraft
2. A lower wing loading due to new enlarged design
3. An IRST, AESA radar, better and more powerful ECM and EW

Strategic Option 3: General Design Layout

There are basically three practical options in terms of project Azm's suitability and practicality:

1. Conventional F-16 / JF-17 / F-22 Layout
2. Delta Canard J-10/ J-20
3. Delta Twin-tail YF-23 style

Of these three options, #1 is the most likely given:
1. Low risk design
2. Closest to the F-16 (PAF's fantasy plane)
3. Excellent for commonality, allowing PAF to us Israeli training tactics of providing part of the air-time training on the JF-17 / F-16.

If all of the above reasoning is correct, we will have (under the most likely scenario):
1. A single engined, conventional layout fighter
2. WS-15 engine
3. LO of around 0.05 - 0.1 RCS, mainly for frontal RCS not all aspect
4. Semi-recessed missiles rather than internal weapons bay.

just my thoughts.

I think the fighter coming out of project AZM will be a delta wing twin fin single-engine stealth fighter with the internal bay. PAf already has F-16 type fighter in term of JFT. there is a strong lobby in PAF to keep pushing for stealth F-16 design, but the need of an hour is to have a delta wing true 5th gen stealth design with supercruise and all goodies. the bulk of workhorse will be JFT and AZM fighter at cutting edge that will replace all F-16 AM/BM and Mirage. while JFT will replace all remaining F-7 and non-rose mirage. paf might just still be stuck with 18 odd blk52 f-16

 

[Army research]

I think the fighter coming out of project AZM will be a delta wing twin fin single-engine stealth fighter with the internal bay. PAf already has F-16 type fighter in term of JFT. there is a strong lobby in PAF to keep pushing for stealth F-16 design, but the need of an hour is to have a delta wing true 5th gen stealth design with supercruise and all goodies. the bulk of workhorse will be JFT and AZM fighter at cutting edge that will replace all F-16 AM/BM and Mirage. while JFT will replace all remaining F-7 and non-rose mirage. paf might just still be stuck with 18 odd blk52 f-16

It will be a dual engine plane

 

[Taimoor Khan]

Stealth fighter is an over kill to give us a heart attack. A decent moped would do for your range.

Where did I mention it would be exclusively for you lot?

No heart attack for them...some Raj47 expert will show them that it's just CGI. They will instead be jumping up and down thinking themselves victorious...somehow.

It is conceived to cover "full spectrum of threats", not just the rats in the east.

 

[Armchair]

I think the fighter coming out of project AZM will be a delta wing twin fin single-engine stealth fighter with the internal bay. PAf already has F-16 type fighter in term of JFT. there is a strong lobby in PAF to keep pushing for stealth F-16 design, but the need of an hour is to have a delta wing true 5th gen stealth design with supercruise and all goodies. the bulk of workhorse will be JFT and AZM fighter at cutting edge that will replace all F-16 AM/BM and Mirage. while JFT will replace all remaining F-7 and non-rose mirage. paf might just still be stuck with 18 odd blk52 f-16

Hi Syed,

That's something that I would like very much. I actually agree with you 100% for that to be the best design for the role.

A single engined, delta with twin tail would give the best high altitude BVR combat performance there is.

The downside is that:

1. PAF likes the F-16 and everything it will design will very likely need to end up like it.
2. The design is high risk because it would need a new FCS (flight control system) to be designed. This is very time and money intensive. Project cannot be finished in 5 years if this route is taken.
3. It will be a more costly option.
4. Probably won't be as good a dogfighter in that layout unless you added canards (which has a host of its own issues)

The upsides are:

1. Excellent high altitude / high speed BVR combat platform, will rival the F-22 in this role.
2. Guaranteed supercruise capability
3. The basic design has huge potential for stealth; the Mirage 2000 for instance has 1/3rd the RCS of the F-16. The YF-23 was a superior stealth fighter to the F-22.
4. Will give it far superior range and payload.

 

[MIRauf]

Single engine ? what available engine do you see powering AZM ? engine that is readily available to PAF / PAC/ Pakistan or will be in next few years for sure ?

 

[Army research]

Single engine ? what available engine do you see powering AZM ? engine that is readily available to PAF / PAC/ Pakistan or will be in next few years for sure ?

It will be double engine

 

[MIRauf]

"Army research"

Oh, I agree with you, thus I ask the question to folks stating it be a single engine, which single engine ? ( that is or would be available to PAF. )

 

[syed_yusuf]

Hi Syed,

That's something that I would like very much. I actually agree with you 100% for that to be the best design for the role.

A single engined, delta with twin tail would give the best high altitude BVR combat performance there is.

The downside is that:

1. PAF likes the F-16 and everything it will design will very likely need to end up like it.
2. The design is high risk because it would need a new FCS (flight control system) to be designed. This is very time and money intensive. Project cannot be finished in 5 years if this route is taken.
3. It will be a more costly option.
4. Probably won't be as good a dogfighter in that layout unless you added canards (which has a host of its own issues)

The upsides are:

1. Excellent high altitude / high speed BVR combat platform, will rival the F-22 in this role.
2. Guaranteed supercruise capability
3. The basic design has huge potential for stealth; the Mirage 2000 for instance has 1/3rd the RCS of the F-16. The YF-23 was a superior stealth fighter to the F-22.
4. Will give it far superior range and payload.

Canard might not be needed due to TV engines

 

[帅的一匹]

It will be a dual engine plane

To make sure it can excercise maritime task, it's better be dual engines.

WS19 is under development, it absorbs the technology from WS15.

 

[Armchair]

Canard might not be needed due to TV engines

Problem with TVC is low MTBF, greater weight (reducing thrust to weight ratio and increasing wing loading). A burden to maintain.
Problem with WS-19 is there is no major Chinese weapons project using this. So its quality, cost, future upgrade program are all tied. Also its not a ready engine. We don't know how long it will take to make or if it won't get cancelled.

WS-15 is the best bet for an engine from the East. Who knows? Maybe PAF wants to get the engines from the US or the UK... or one could just go with RD-93s I guess.

 

[帅的一匹]

Problem with TVC is low MTBF, greater weight (reducing thrust to weight ratio and increasing wing loading). A burden to maintain.
Problem with WS-19 is there is no major Chinese weapons project using this. So its quality, cost, future upgrade program are all tied. Also its not a ready engine. We don't know how long it will take to make or if it won't get cancelled.

WS-15 is the best bet for an engine from the East. Who knows? Maybe PAF wants to get the engines from the US or the UK... or one could just go with RD-93s I guess.

If FC31 goes to navy, the top priority will be WS19.

 

[Armchair]

If FC31 goes to navy, the top priority will be WS19.

There are many ifs with the WS19. Too many. Compared to WS-15 which is a near finished product.
But even if all the IFs and buts were sorted, and PLAN gets J-31, it would be very small numbers compared to J-20 / J-10s.

 

[帅的一匹]

There are many ifs with the WS19. Too many. Compared to WS-15 which is a near finished product.
But even if all the IFs and buts were sorted, and PLAN gets J-31, it would be very small numbers compared to J-20 / J-10s.

China will have at least 6 carriers in the future, at least 500 FC31 will be inducted for the navy.