Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[ziaulislam]

As per the article of Retired Group Captain S.M Hali

that we/public know off....so we know of AMCA which is just a paper project we have no solid idea what azm would look like..
i am pretty much sure basic requirements are already set before the project was announced

 

[帅的一匹]

China and Pakistan will make JF17 absolutely safe in all terms. Let's say, what if Russia cuts off the RD93 engine supply to Jf17 in war time, if India pressurize on Russia and give a bloody big amount of weapon order to Russia as a bait. We have WS13 engine as backup, you don't realize how important it is unless you are forced into the corner. Everything has a meaning of its existence . Whatever PAF imports from the west for JF17 we have alternatives and backup(on par or a little bit inferior).

Anytime don't forget Pakistan and China is on the same boat, and we are ready to sail into the deep of the ocean.

I suggest that Pakistan can start to do R&D in certain fields of the military aspects and try to excel at it. Just like what Israeli does right now.

 

[Armchair]

I dont think you have grasped the complexity of what you have said. Selex would not allow PAF access to their codes for integration of SD10. THhis would have exposed their premier commodity to the Chinese and compromised other projects. By the same token the Chinese were not happy to give access to Selex to integrate theSD10 onto Selex radar. There are other compatibility issues so the situation is not as simple as you have made it out to be. There was no perception of a problem. It was a no go area for both parties.
The Chinese products are now pretty much in the ball park figure so why compromise your relationship for a compatible product.
I think you are subliminally trying to influence me and sway me towards Turkish products. I can assure you the Chinese have now a very advanced programme which is giving out high quality results. I think Turkey is not at that stage. Their products are licence produced and although their is individual research over some aspects, they are more or less where we are. In some aspects they have better access to technology but Price remains an issue as it is a Western product with their own premium added to it. PAF in most cases unless pushed with no compatible product will go for a cheaper but compatible product. The Aselpod was an exception. There maybe other vendors who maybe in a position to give us compatible or better products and we will go the most economical way towards our goal.
A

Thank you, that does help me understand the issue better.

I think I'm trying to subliminally influence you to something you agreed with - diversity of suppliers. Because basing one's defence on one strategic partner is never the best solution.

Now, the problem you have outlined is one of two systems that are politically incompatible - viz - Selex radar and SD-10.

Let us assume for a second that it is perfectly fine for Pakistan to buy whatever it wants from China. And the main issue is quality of the product. One senior member on this board suggested Chinese AAMs may have quality issues. Another suggested the radar sets have longevity and capability drawbacks and quality issues.

PAF obviously wants Western-class systems. And it is trying to go for them. What does that say about Chinese systems? That they may be in the ball park, but not the best ball players.

This means that there has to be a strategic plan to look at other options. Whether Turkish. Whether Brazilian. Whether South African.

You are right, Turkey is producing a lot of licence manufactured stuff re-branded as their own. But there are areas where they are ahead and where they are producing a highly competitive product. For instance, in the Aselpod, you have a Western quality product at near Eastern price points.

Similarly, if they are doing R&D on a fifth generation jet, sure there will be other competitive components available. Or the potential for a superior system at reasonable price. For instance, an AESA radar.

At this point, PAF is happy to buy a Turkish product if it meets the quality and price point that they need. I'm not saying they aren't. What I am suggesting is that PAF needs to take the next step and strategically collaborate on research on specific subsystems. Whether with Turkey, or South Africa, or whoever.

This till now has been an exclusively Chinese affair (collaborating on research). Maybe it doesn't have to be that way. Just an opinion.

PS: In simplest language: "Pakistan wants to build xyz subsystem, would Turkey be interested in partnering the project? The result of the project will be equally shared between the two and the project may involve collaboration with China" (replace Turkey with country of your choice)

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

Both China and Pakistan have great strategic foresight, that's why we decided to go along with each other for the last 50 years.

It's normal practice when you induct most proportion of the weapons from those counties that politically support you and able to produce the weapons you need.

Just like how Pakistan has been going with China and now adding Russia in some extent .

For say, can Pakistan sway its major procurement to Turkey?

First, Tukey is a NATO member. They will look after NATO's interest before they can do anything to help Pakistan.

Second, can Turkey gives veto in UN to those solutions against Pakistan? No again

Third: Turkey is selling weapons to India, not 100% political reliable.

Forth: Turkey weapons are sanction pro as most of the weapons they produce have parts and technology from the west.

Fifth: the industrial foundation and capabilityof Turkey is still comparatively weak. They only have research in some of the aspects, while China and Russia have intensive and complete study in almost all of the military fields.

PAF aims high they decide to go for AZM rather than buying off the shelf. Lot of sub-system will come from Turkey or west, but the main system will come from China.

If you are talking about the engine or radar, I can promise you 100% will come from Russia or China.

My previous short post is formulated to understand that the titles in this forum are ''earned'' or ''given''; and obviously not adressed to you, given your ''windows''.(No offence)

 

[dBSPL]

Pakistan may prefer Chinese engineering in areas that will produce general characteristics of the aircraft such as mainframe, thrust systems, etc. It may come from international politics and economic reasons and very understandable. The point that Chinese engineering has reached today is very important. But remember, all military successes in Pakistan have been captured with strategic superiority.

However such as in some avionics systems like, IFF, tactical data network and all the other CNI systems, Aesa, targeting systems, situational awareness systems etc. : if Turkey and Pakistan have more common structure as possible would be a strategic choice.

Friends, Super Mushkak intake of Turkey was ignored perhaps because it carries very little economic value. However the important detail, this is first step for Turkey Pakistan and Azerbaijan , they are going to have a common pilot training infrastructure. In its reflection, the structure in Turkey will be Super Mushkak (primary trainer) -> Hürkuş (basic training) ---> Hurjet (lead) ---> T-FX (as main combatant)

If more common infrastructure we have, from the initial training to the combat fleet, will increase our common policy and deepen our alliance as much as increase our strike capability ...

Regards.

 

[帅的一匹]

Pakistan has its own concern, that's understandable.

 

[dBSPL]

Turks' view of Pakistan is not strategic. It is not an interest relation.
For us, Pakistan means our second State. We love Pakistan like our country. We see theirs historical accumulation as our common history.While we were fighting for independence, we never forgot our mothers who even sent their golds to us.It's hard to explain. Peoples with such deep ties must unite their powers. They have potential to change the politics of the region from its root.

AZiM and TFX projects are the next major opportunity to create this common perspective.

 

[帅的一匹]

Turks' view of Pakistan is not strategic. It is not an interest relation.
For us, Pakistan means our second State. We love Pakistan like our country. We see theirs historical accumulation as our common history.While we were fighting for independence, we never forgot our mothers who even sent their golds to us.It's hard to explain. Peoples with such deep ties must unite their powers. They have potential to change the politics of the region from its root.

AZiM and TFX projects are the next major opportunity to create this common perspective.

Please explain why you sell weapon to your mother's enemy?

 

[Armchair]

Please explain why you sell weapon to your mother's enemy?

Not sure what this is about. I assume you mean Turkey sold something to India.

India is not Pakistan's enemy - it is a political adversary. In diplomatic terms, it is a friend who has diplomatic ties and embassies with Pakistan and is a joint member of SAARC and the commonwealth. Pakistan has never asked Turkey not to sell weapons to India.

 

[syed_yusuf]

Turks' view of Pakistan is not strategic. It is not an interest relation.
For us, Pakistan means our second State. We love Pakistan like our country. We see theirs historical accumulation as our common history.While we were fighting for independence, we never forgot our mothers who even sent their golds to us.It's hard to explain. Peoples with such deep ties must unite their powers. They have potential to change the politics of the region from its root.

AZiM and TFX projects are the next major opportunity to create this common perspective.

i have experienced Turkish love for Pakistan first hand few weeks ago

 

[帅的一匹]

Not sure what this is about. I assume you mean Turkey sold something to India.

India is not Pakistan's enemy - it is a political adversary. In diplomatic terms, it is a friend who has diplomatic ties and embassies with Pakistan and is a joint member of SAARC and the commonwealth. Pakistan has never asked Turkey not to sell weapons to India.

 

[Armchair]

between, what exactly did Turkey sell to India? I must have missed it.

 

[araz]

Both China and Pakistan have great strategic foresight, that's why we decided to go along with each other for the last 50 years.

It's normal practice when you induct most proportion of the weapons from those counties that politically support you and able to produce the weapons you need.

Just like how Pakistan has been going with China and now adding Russia in some extent .

For say, can Pakistan sway its major procurement to Turkey?

First, Tukey is a NATO member. They will look after NATO's interest before they can do anything to help Pakistan.

Second, can Turkey gives veto in UN to those solutions against Pakistan? No again

Third: Turkey is selling weapons to India, not 100% political reliable.

Forth: Turkey weapons are sanction pro as most of the weapons they produce have parts and technology from the west.

Fifth: the industrial foundation and capabilityof Turkey is still comparatively weak. They only have research in some of the aspects, while China and Russia have intensive and complete study in almost all of the military fields.

PAF aims high they decide to go for AZM rather than buying off the shelf. Lot of sub-system will come from Turkey or west, but the main system will come from China.

If you are talking about the engine or radar, I can promise you 100% will come from Russia or China.

Thank you for a very balanced and good post. However Turkey and Pakistan have historical ties which go back nearly a hundred years. These will turn into strategic partnership as well. However with competing projects PAF would now much rather go its own way.
Pak- China are natural allies. The proximity and Chinese investment in CEPC will bring two brotherly nations even closer. China is an emerging world power and Pak has chosen to ride on the back of this upsurge to gather momentim for its own growth. This will further cement their relationship.
A

 

[BHarwana]

India is not Pakistan's enemy

This statement is wrong Pakistan made nukes because of India and India is an enemy. To look good you don't have to phrase a false statement.

Regarding Project AZM it is turkey or China I don't know but making an assessment Pakistan's 5th gen will be partnered with China and not Turkey. I am stating this due to technical reasons which is the required technology is available from China and also the supply of engines and equipment. Turkish tech come with the threat of sanction because of it being based on European suppliers. TFX has BAE systems involved in it and just look at the up gradation of Leopard tanks for turkey, how many hitched Europe has created.

 

[nadeemkhan110]

You still remember last year CCTV4 documentary had proved that J20 is powered by WS15 Engine? and the documentary clip was deleted immediately the day after that? What if WS15 is already completed and they try to hide the facts just like they hide the existence of J20 development until the first sortie in year 2011?

Still remember the twisted face of Robert Gates when he knew the maiden flight of J20 prototype in year 2011 during his visit to China? While He predicated that China will make J20 fly no earlier than year 2018.

CCP is smart and tricky as always.

I'm a typical conspiracist.

[emoji23]

Yes now j-20 gas WS-15 it has a maximum thrust of 197 kilo newtons (44,000 lbf) with afterburner, with a thrust to weight ratio of between 9.7 and 10.87 but the good thing is that with this engine smoke issue is resolved and now it can carry more weight