Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[Muhammad Omar]

I'm having a feeling that Project AZM will include 2 planes one which we gonna see in short term as mentioned by EX ACM SOHAIL

Possible option is Chinese J-31 with local production in PAC Kamra in 2024-25

While there's a plan for long term as well to replace the F-16's of Pakistan Airforce which is gonna be Turkish TAI TFX in 2029-30 timeline

And yeah we all have seen the model of MALE UAV in PAC Kamra

After the news of Project AZM we have seen the regular flights of J-31 V2 and even a dogfight kind of manuver between J-31 V1 and J-31 V2 and even Chinese media reported that J-31 is being tested by the friendly country without disclosing the name of that friendly country

 

[princefaisal]

Better option is to get the design of Single engine configuration TFX from Turkey and install WS-15 engine in it with mix of other key components from China and Turkey.

 

[帅的一匹]

nope one of the thing we are aware about Pakistan's 5 gen jet is that It will have a ferry range of 6000 Km without Air to air refuelling so it must be a twin engine jet

By 6000KM ferry range you mean J20 alike heavy class fighter. j20 can reach 6000KM ferry range with four external fuel pods.

I'm having a feeling that Project AZM will include 2 planes one which we gonna see in short term as mentioned by EX ACM SOHAIL

Possible option is Chinese J-31 with local production in PAC Kamra in 2024-25

While there's a plan for long term as well to replace the F-16's of Pakistan Airforce which is gonna be Turkish TAI TFX in 2029-30 timeline

And yeah we all have seen the model of MALE UAV in PAC Kamra

After the news of Project AZM we have seen the regular flights of J-31 V2 and even a dogfight kind of manuver between J-31 V1 and J-31 V2 and even Chinese media reported that J-31 is being tested by the friendly country without disclosing the name of that friendly country

Impossible to have two different stealthy fighter for PAF, you need a benchmark platform to build up.

No matter be it China or Turkey, even Russia, you can bring it together within a single platform.

 

[HRK]

By 6000KM ferry range you mean J20 alike heavy class fighter. j20 can reach 6000KM ferry range with four external fuel pods.

obviously Azam 5 gen must be a heavy class fighter with this figure, that figure was announced by recently retired Chief of Air Staff of Pakistan Air force Sohail Aman before the his retirement in one of his interview to a local news paper

 

[帅的一匹]

obviously Azam 5 gen must be a heavy class fighter with this figure, that figure was announced by recently retired Chief of Air Staff of Pakistan Air force Sohail Aman before the his retirement in one of his interview to a local news paper

Good news

 

[Muhammad Omar]

By 6000KM ferry range you mean J20 alike heavy class fighter. j20 can reach 6000KM ferry range with four external fuel pods.


Impossible to have two different stealthy fighter for PAF, you need a benchmark platform to build up.

No matter be it China or Turkey, even Russia, you can bring it together within a single platform.

Benchmark platform will be J-31 for sure

 

[Armchair]

Thank you for your reply. I think PAF has a policy of trying multiple competing providers for a product. There are certian issues with this policy. The Chinese are the main providers of tech and transfers. They have ready cash and offer loans on good rates. However in return they push for their products to be purchased. With increasing collaboration the equation is changing and PAF has started to look around and the Thunder has subsystems from multiple providers. However there are certain restrictions. For instance Radar and weapons integration in certain instances needs approval from the Chinese and for a few products thye are unhappy to provide the source codes. This means for instance that if wqe chose a Selex AESA we will have to chose a whole plethora of non Chinese weapons and fire control equipment as both parties will not supply the source codes for their weaponry. So PAF being stuck in a bnary calculus has certain compulsions attached to it. We are trying to locally assemble radars giving us leeway to a certain extent in mating different weapons to the radar, but whether this will be forthcoming with the AESA of Chinese origin is yet to be seen.
Rest of the post I agree with.
A

I think the problem was faced when PAF tried to get the Selex radar, and it was felt china would not give proper access for the SD-10. There are such bottlenecks where the PAF gets cornered. But this may be even less of an issue with Azm compared to the JFT.

Hopefully more vendors (including from Turkey?) can help increase the competition despite these issues. Going forward I see the bottlenecks as:

1. Radar
2. BVR / WVR
3. HMD
4. EOTS / IRST

Turkey is developing an AESA radar along with BVR / WVR missiles. However, their missiles may not be on par with Chinese ones.
South Africa is dying as a weapons exporter and has recently chosen India over Pakistan. If anything can be bought wholesale, there may still be a narrow window. by wholesale I mean all the necessary blueprints / codes / specialized machinery to build the product. Even if the IR or RF sensors for missiles can have its tech transferred, it would be something. An interesting litmus test in this connection will be what WVR HOBS B3 goes for.

Mectron is going strong in Brazil and this may be another source.

It would be really great if PAF could have its own range of AAMs.

RUMINT suggests they already have developed a rudimentary HMD which is a "work in progress" with gradual enhancement of features.

This leaves us with radar and EOTS / IRST

IRST is not going to be hard to find competitively in the market. Radar is the key.
If PAF can collaborate with Turkey on an air intercept radar, even this alone would be a giant step for both countries.

Just my 0.02

 

[princefaisal]

I think the problem was faced when PAF tried to get the Selex radar, and it was felt china would not give proper access for the SD-10. There are such bottlenecks where the PAF gets cornered. But this may be even less of an issue with Azm compared to the JFT.

Hopefully more vendors (including from Turkey?) can help increase the competition despite these issues. Going forward I see the bottlenecks as:

1. Radar
2. BVR / WVR
3. HMD
4. EOTS / IRST

Turkey is developing an AESA radar along with BVR / WVR missiles. However, their missiles may not be on par with Chinese ones.
South Africa is dying as a weapons exporter and has recently chosen India over Pakistan. If anything can be bought wholesale, there may still be a narrow window. by wholesale I mean all the necessary blueprints / codes / specialized machinery to build the product. Even if the IR or RF sensors for missiles can have its tech transferred, it would be something. An interesting litmus test in this connection will be what WVR HOBS B3 goes for.

Mectron is going strong in Brazil and this may be another source.

It would be really great if PAF could have its own range of AAMs.

RUMINT suggests they already have developed a rudimentary HMD which is a "work in progress" with gradual enhancement of features.

This leaves us with radar and EOTS / IRST

IRST is not going to be hard to find competitively in the market. Radar is the key.
If PAF can collaborate with Turkey on an air intercept radar, even this alone would be a giant step for both countries.

Just my 0.02

Have we taken any benefit from already signed MoU on “Defence and Defence Industrial Cooperation” with South Africa dated 27 March 2017?

What about the tweet from JR Vianney on Twitter mentioning: "JF-17 integrated w/ A-Darter"?

 

[Armchair]

Have we taken any benefit from already signed MoU on “Defence and Defence Industrial Cooperation” with South Africa dated 27 March 2017?

What about the tweet from JR Vianney on Twitter mentioning: "JF-17 integrated w/ A-Darter"?

Apparently the Indians managed to sway Denel their way so your country Pakistan is not getting the best reception in South Africa. A mistake on the part of Denel as they will never sell much to India. Just get stuck with endless procurement circus.

Just an idea that crossed my head just now - can Pakistan buy the entire technology and IP for MAA-1B Piranha? Since Brazil has the A-darter now, they don't need it. The IR sensor alone would mean everything from land based sams to Sea based point defense system.

Could be a very quick way to get the technology needed to have a working WVR AAM.

 

[araz]

I think the problem was faced when PAF tried to get the Selex radar, and it was felt china would not give proper access for the SD-10. There are such bottlenecks where the PAF gets cornered. But this may be even less of an issue with Azm compared to the JFT.

Hopefully more vendors (including from Turkey?) can help increase the competition despite these issues. Going forward I see the bottlenecks as:

1. Radar
2. BVR / WVR
3. HMD
4. EOTS / IRST

Turkey is developing an AESA radar along with BVR / WVR missiles. However, their missiles may not be on par with Chinese ones.
South Africa is dying as a weapons exporter and has recently chosen India over Pakistan. If anything can be bought wholesale, there may still be a narrow window. by wholesale I mean all the necessary blueprints / codes / specialized machinery to build the product. Even if the IR or RF sensors for missiles can have its tech transferred, it would be something. An interesting litmus test in this connection will be what WVR HOBS B3 goes for.

Mectron is going strong in Brazil and this may be another source.

It would be really great if PAF could have its own range of AAMs.

RUMINT suggests they already have developed a rudimentary HMD which is a "work in progress" with gradual enhancement of features.

This leaves us with radar and EOTS / IRST

IRST is not going to be hard to find competitively in the market. Radar is the key.
If PAF can collaborate with Turkey on an air intercept radar, even this alone would be a giant step for both countries.

Just my 0.02

I dont think you have grasped the complexity of what you have said. Selex would not allow PAF access to their codes for integration of SD10. THhis would have exposed their premier commodity to the Chinese and compromised other projects. By the same token the Chinese were not happy to give access to Selex to integrate theSD10 onto Selex radar. There are other compatibility issues so the situation is not as simple as you have made it out to be. There was no perception of a problem. It was a no go area for both parties.
The Chinese products are now pretty much in the ball park figure so why compromise your relationship for a compatible product.
I think you are subliminally trying to influence me and sway me towards Turkish products. I can assure you the Chinese have now a very advanced programme which is giving out high quality results. I think Turkey is not at that stage. Their products are licence produced and although their is individual research over some aspects, they are more or less where we are. In some aspects they have better access to technology but Price remains an issue as it is a Western product with their own premium added to it. PAF in most cases unless pushed with no compatible product will go for a cheaper but compatible product. The Aselpod was an exception. There maybe other vendors who maybe in a position to give us compatible or better products and we will go the most economical way towards our goal.
A

 

[Pakistani Aircraft]

we should expect a protoype in 5 years(Serial production in 10-12 years), i think that is when we would know ..unless something is leaked before

11 years to be exact.

"The committee was informed that PAC Kamra is working over the core project "AZM" to be completed within time period of 11 years."

https://fp.brecorder.com/2018/03/20180328355226/

 

[Islamic faith&Secularism]

I dont think you have grasped the complexity of what you have said. Selex would not allow PAF access to their codes for integration of SD10. THhis would have exposed their premier commodity to the Chinese and compromised other projects. By the same token the Chinese were not happy to give access to Selex to integrate theSD10 onto Selex radar. There are other compatibility issues so the situation is not as simple as you have made it out to be. There was no perception of a problem. It was a no go area for both parties.
The Chinese products are now pretty much in the ball park figure so why compromise your relationship for a compatible product.
I think you are subliminally trying to influence me and sway me towards Turkish products. I can assure you the Chinese have now a very advanced programme which is giving out high quality results. I think Turkey is not at that stage. Their products are licence produced and although their is individual research over some aspects, they are more or less where we are. In some aspects they have better access to technology but Price remains an issue as it is a Western product with their own premium added to it. PAF in most cases unless pushed with no compatible product will go for a cheaper but compatible product. The Aselpod was an exception. There maybe other vendors who maybe in a position to give us compatible or better products and we will go the most economical way towards our goal.
A

It is the perspective of a purchasing department; unlike procurement one, lacks of strategic foresight.

The former looks today, the latter looks the future.

 

[帅的一匹]

I dont think you have grasped the complexity of what you have said. Selex would not allow PAF access to their codes for integration of SD10. THhis would have exposed their premier commodity to the Chinese and compromised other projects. By the same token the Chinese were not happy to give access to Selex to integrate theSD10 onto Selex radar. There are other compatibility issues so the situation is not as simple as you have made it out to be. There was no perception of a problem. It was a no go area for both parties.
The Chinese products are now pretty much in the ball park figure so why compromise your relationship for a compatible product.
I think you are subliminally trying to influence me and sway me towards Turkish products. I can assure you the Chinese have now a very advanced programme which is giving out high quality results. I think Turkey is not at that stage. Their products are licence produced and although their is individual research over some aspects, they are more or less where we are. In some aspects they have better access to technology but Price remains an issue as it is a Western product with their own premium added to it. PAF in most cases unless pushed with no compatible product will go for a cheaper but compatible product. The Aselpod was an exception. There maybe other vendors who maybe in a position to give us compatible or better products and we will go the most economical way towards our goal.
A

Just like when German MTU cut engine supply to Altay tank, Turkey can't figure it out by themselves. Now Altay has no powerplant, the project is stagnant.

The problem is that they never look into east when the west say no to them.

 

[HannibalBarca]

Just like when German MTU cut engine supply to Altay tank, Turkey can't figure it out by themselves. Now Altay has no powerplant, the project is stagnant.

The problem is that they never look into east when the west say no to them.

You should re-check your "Knowledge" on that matter...

 

[帅的一匹]

It is the perspective of a purchasing department; unlike procurement one, lacks of strategic foresight.

The former looks today, the latter looks the future.

Both China and Pakistan have great strategic foresight, that's why we decided to go along with each other for the last 50 years.

It's normal practice when you induct most proportion of the weapons from those counties that politically support you and able to produce the weapons you need.

Just like how Pakistan has been going with China and now adding Russia in some extent .

For say, can Pakistan sway its major procurement to Turkey?

First, Tukey is a NATO member. They will look after NATO's interest before they can do anything to help Pakistan.

Second, can Turkey gives veto in UN to those solutions against Pakistan? No again

Third: Turkey is selling weapons to India, not 100% political reliable.

Forth: Turkey weapons are sanction pro as most of the weapons they produce have parts and technology from the west.

Fifth: the industrial foundation and capabilityof Turkey is still comparatively weak. They only have research in some of the aspects, while China and Russia have intensive and complete study in almost all of the military fields.

PAF aims high they decide to go for AZM rather than buying off the shelf. Lot of sub-system will come from Turkey or west, but the main system will come from China.

If you are talking about the engine or radar, I can promise you 100% will come from Russia or China.