Featured Project Azm: Pakistan's Ambitious Quest to Develop 5th Generation Military Technologies.

[hamilcar of carthage]

Right. FCS is our biggest blindspot in my opinion. This opinion is based on
1. my undergraduate experience where our university could never find a single capable person to teach us control systems.
2. this is my area of expertise and I've had total cold calls from people working in Azm asking help on FCS. These people were not controls engineers but being asked to do FCS because "how hard can it be" mentality. Of course I can be of little or no use to them sitting outside and giving general directions.
3. I know a lot of people working at Azm and I know their knowledge base. Most of them are undergrads from Pakistan and I already said how much undergrads are taught controls in Pakistan. I can literally count Pakistani control engineers on one hand. The people with masters are all people with expertise in structural CFD and turbo machinery type fields.

But I didn't want to talk about the giant FCS shaped hole because it is after all my area of expertise and I realize that I may be biased towards it and overemphasize its importance.


The only FCS Pakistan has experience with are those of UAVs. To the best of my knowledge there is 0 experience on FBW systems. In fact PAC was unable to absorb any of the FBW tech of the JF17 because they didn't have the human/technical resource for it. As you can imagine even the FCS expertise lives in compartmentalized clusters in various SPD organizations that make UAVs and CMs. FBW is more complicated than a FCS because you have a human directly in the loop and a person in the plane that you need to secure with a lot of redundancy.


These are good steps for sure but without a robust economy and stability all of these will become pipedreams. It's not just the military that needs to get its act together.

There are good control engineers, but they don't work for PAF.

 

[imadul]

So far in the Muslim world, yes Turkey is the best for aircraft/helicopter engine, I also hope Turkey will be able to make good one as soon as possible. The Ukraine deal seems not go through if we see current situation there, but there is chance Russia will not invade entire Ukraine that I have had predicted but rather only some part of it where it is close to Russian and has majority Russian speakers like Donbas region. Hopefully the Motor Sich factory and their design office are not located in the region where Russia will try to occupy and retain.

I always thought that many of previous USSR aviation and engine design bureaus were left in Ukraine and what RF will do about it. The motor sich plant is not much far from Crimea.
There was a news motor sich shall sell 50% stakes to a turkish company after deal with a chines company fell through under US pressure.

Ukrainian Motor Sich to Sell 50% Stake to Turkish Firm

Ukrainian jet engine maker Motor Sich wants to sell half of its stakes to a Turkish company. Motor Sich’s engines power Antonov planes, besides “Mi” and “Ka” series of military helicopters used by nearly fifteen countries. The sale of some 50% stake in the Ukrainian firm to a Turkish company...

www.defenseworld.net

 

[helloworld25]

so, hello guys.
I've been following the forum anonymously for somewhat around 7 years - considering this thread is related to the entire azm program, why is there no mention of our progress in the development of AAM or SAMs.
Would appreciate it if we could move the discussions over to other projects within the azm program

 

[.King.]

Hmm... Interesting news coming.

Turkish officials denied that Pak was involved in the TFX programme, and said the MoU was limited to hiring of pakistani students for future developmental projects (which may include TFX or other aircraft).

 

[Chak Bamu]

Hmm... Interesting news coming.

Turkish officials denied that Pak was involved in the TFX programme, and said the MoU was limited to hiring of pakistani students for future developmental projects (which may include TFX or other aircraft).

Source?

 

[Bratva]

Source?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1506853340935856133

https://twitter.com/x/status/1506853599447597057

https://twitter.com/x/status/1506878519346974725

 

[Chak Bamu]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1506853340935856133

https://twitter.com/x/status/1506853599447597057

https://twitter.com/x/status/1506878519346974725

I don't trust this guy. He has figured out that ridiculing Pakistan is the fastest way to improve his follower count. I would much prefer some other source.

In any case, Pakistan has options even if this is true.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

I don't trust this guy. He has figured out that ridiculing Pakistan is the fastest way to improve his follower count. I would much prefer some other source.

In any case, Pakistan has options even if this is true.

The PAF hasn't signed a formal MoU re: the TFX (yet).

 

[The Eagle]

I don't trust this guy. He has figured out that ridiculing Pakistan is the fastest way to improve his follower count. I would much prefer some other source.

In any case, Pakistan has options even if this is true.

This soothing source for trolls as compare to TAI boss along with Pakistani officials on TV. I am not saying that it is all like how it is interpreted but at-least far more credible than such followers attracting analyst. Having said that, it was however clarified by one of sources close to Turkish Military that AZM is not merged with TAI. That too, they have to issue such statement because of some Pakistanis drown way too deep into emotional current while misunderstanding the statement at first and; everyone copied it till a rebuttal.

 

[python-000]

I don't trust this guy. He has figured out that ridiculing Pakistan is the fastest way to improve his follower count. I would much prefer some other source.

In any case, Pakistan has options even if this is true.

Yes Pakistan also other options as well Pakistan can join J-35 project with China & in any emergency Pakistan can get J-20...

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I am surprised why pakistani posters feel insulted by the turkish company's comments regarding working on their 5th gen aircraft.

Why would Paf do that---the chinese program is way ahead of the turkish program.

The J20 has been integrated---the J31 could be in its finals years for induction.

Turkish program doesn't even have a flyable model yet and I don't understand why you pakistani kids are lowering yourself to be begging to be in that program.

 

[Indos]

I don't trust this guy. He has figured out that ridiculing Pakistan is the fastest way to improve his follower count. I would much prefer some other source.

In any case, Pakistan has options even if this is true.

Pakistan governance needs to be reformed, no more secret. Pakistan government should be more transparan. MOU and contract should be openly publish for any defense projects, particularly any joint project with other country. Debate within public should be encouraged, this is good to improve nation decision making process as brightest people are all over the country, not only within the government.

 

[Sayfullah]

Pakistan governance needs to be reformed, no more secret. Pakistan government should be more transparan. MOU and contract should be openly publish for any defense projects, particularly any joint project with other country. Debate within public should be encouraged, this is good to improve nation decision making process as brightest people are all over the country, not only within the government.

I think if we make all purchases public it would unintentionally boost the arms race in the region and Pakistan won’t be able to keep up since india has a far bigger budget. Keeping purchases secret can lower the effects of the arms race we’re in with India.

 

[khansaheeb]

There are good control engineers, but they don't work for PAF.

Control theory is simple and it all about negative and positive feedback, underdamping and over damping and stability. However the software needs to go go one step up into the realms of AI and let AI learn and make decisions for high performance flight. Pakistan makes everything required for total indigenous manufacturing of aircrafts , all we need is quality design and systems engineers and project managers. The only way you can get great engineers and scientists is by phased pass down of knowledge and technology from Industry to Universities to colleges and schools. All Pakistan's scientists and engineers on retirement should be incentivised to pass their theoretical and applied knowledge to schools, colleges and universities. How fast Pakistan progresses is going to depend how effectively knowledge can be transferred to students.

 

[JamD]

There are good control engineers, but they don't work for PAF.

Yup.

Control theory is simple and it all about negative and positive feedback, underdamping and over damping and stability.

I will have to disagree. That's like saying aerothermodynamics is easy because it's about chemical reactions, thermodynamics, and Navier Stokes. Control system design is a very involved subject, especially when it comes to practical applications (as opposed to just writing papers).

However the software needs to go go one step up into the realms of AI and let AI learn and make decisions for high performance flight.

AI/ML based control theory is very far away from practical implementation because of the open problem of certifying such systems. Theres a world of control systems that are applied for flight control systems that PAC would need to build expertise in. Software as a replacement for control systems expertise is a very very dangerously naive idea.

Pakistan makes everything required for total indigenous manufacturing of aircrafts , all we need is quality design and systems engineers and project managers.

And control systems engineers. Systems engineers cannot design a flight control system. If you will ask people without control systems expertise to design flight control systems you will crash planes and kill people. I mean there must be a reason why the worlds aircraft manufacturers employ and pay handsome sums to control systems engineers. The flight control system is a very critical system on any modern aircraft.