Remind me of SAAB's FS2020 twin engine design study..Strikingly similar or at-least close to what it looks like
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Remind me of SAAB's FS2020 twin engine design study..Strikingly similar or at-least close to what it looks like
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What is the basis for that conclusion?So, basically, we are standing right there where we were 5 years ago when we first learned about completion of first phase of preliminary design study in 2017-18,
1. No new updateWhat is the basis for that conclusion?
1. What update are you expecting? The F-35 began its lifecycle in 1995 and other than company updates nothing major was seen until the X-35 was rolled out in 2000.1. No new update
2. Multiple design images released in various videos hinting that PAF is intended to get it but still no design finalization like it was in 2017-18.
3. Rumors that Stealth fighter part of Azm is already abandoned in fav of a collaborative project with TAI.
4. Lack of required industrial and knowledge base in the country and very little improvement in that during the last 5 years.
Wanted to be proven wrong on all of these
It’s a reasonable and logical way to goIs it going to be a JV like JF-17?
Some conversations from behind these designs:Indeed.
I had immediately googled to see if it was a copy of an existing design. It was not. The closest to it was the X-35. I could not believe my eyes.
Talking of only the design elements observable in what has been disclosed by PAF (because some details are yet hidden), the canted twin-tails are perhaps the most challenging part. The join will be very difficult. This would perhaps require Titanium & I wondered if that is something Pakistan could manage doing? It also raised a couple of questions in my mind - one of them being if Pakistan is seriously working on this. I mean just look at that join, which would undergo very high stresses. Also, the behavior of the twin canted tails in the turbulent/vortex flow was an immediate question mark. I have nearly zero study of aerodynamics, but I could see that this would also be a challenge to design around.
In case somebody has noticed, I am a bit dismissive of this design. The above are some of my concerns that lead me to be skeptical.
As have always been and led to the many disasters that Pakistan has faced.Some conversations from behind these designs:
The second in command of Azm did not want canards because they were providing only marginal benefit at the expense of increased RCS. But for some reason the first in command of Azm has insisted on a design with canards. It would be appear that his persistence has won out. You will recall that there was also a canard-less design. This story didnt fill me with confidence because it sounded like design decisions that should be made on scientific merits were being made on egos/chain of command. Let's see what becomes of this effort. At the very least it is good practice.
Also from all that I heard it didnt appear like structural design was on anyone's minds. It was aerodynamics and RCS.
mark my word, a single engine medium weight stealthy fighter based on WS15 engine will join PAF in the future.
Some conversations from behind these designs:
The second in command of Azm did not want canards because they were providing only marginal benefit at the expense of increased RCS. But for some reason the first in command of Azm has insisted on a design with canards. It would be appear that his persistence has won out. You will recall that there was also a canard-less design. This story didnt fill me with confidence because it sounded like design decisions that should be made on scientific merits were being made on egos/chain of command. Let's see what becomes of this effort. At the very least it is good practice.
Also from all that I heard it didnt appear like structural design was on anyone's minds. It was aerodynamics and RCS.
...and what steps have been taken to retain such a resource by PAF?4. Possibly, a lot of brain drain occurs and the lack of stable economic conditions do not bode well for smart people who have other avenues to look for their future.
To stop this they will have to change whole work culture in research organizations which is not gona happen any time soon.and what steps have been taken to retain such a resource by PAF
Right. FCS is our biggest blindspot in my opinion. This opinion is based onThe other problem with canards with the images we have seen so far of Azm is - the FBW requirements of Azm are massive(more so that other 5th/6th gen concepts out there) since you are proposing 3 different horizontal surfaces(canards, wing, tail wings) that have to control airflow versus 2 which is the norm. So - whoever made the decision to have a "3-rd" control surface - does not appreciate the complexity of the FBW to support that configuration for a 3-axis quadraplex FBW system............
If you take what FBW has to deal with to make an unstable plane fly - then you add on top different payload considerations - some of which are assymetric in weight - then the complex scenarios that the FBW has to handle for different altitude, speed and directions go up massively... That is a lot of very very serious complex math there - has anyone seen anything in Pakistan that shows it can handle this complexity???? Germany insisted on doing the FBW for the Typhoon and it delayed the project by many many years while they worked out how to do it - and Germany has a lot more high end scientific universities that can and did help to get it to work ...
This is why I was asking about the FBW for the TFX .... i was curious - ie will it be a Turkish greenfield FBW.. If so - then a very significant achievement.
There are few instances of operational frontline planes with 3 surfaces - Su30MKI counts as one of them and a suite of of experimental planes.
These are good steps for sure but without a robust economy and stability all of these will become pipedreams. It's not just the military that needs to get its act together.To stop this they will have to change whole work culture in research organizations which is not gona happen any time soon.
But due to establishment of new organizations like National Aerospace Science and Technology Park (NASTP),
hopefully military involvement in research works will be limited and we will be able to see some actual change in next 20+ years down the line.
As you can imagine even the FCS expertise lives in compartmentalized clusters in various SPD organizations that make UAVs and CMs.