Point Of View with ArzooKazmi : An Indian Muslim's stance on Ayodhya

[Joe Shearer]

The same can be said for the liberals as well.

Please.

Include me out.

 

[Joe Shearer]

My main argument is that the ppl(bhakts) trying to correct the supposed "injustice" done in a "might is right" kind of way...don't see that they are doing the same thing...

There are two sections, and this needs understanding, comprehension; one section is cynical and manipulative. Their programme is founded on the destruction of the system as it is, and its conversion to a system that will perpetuate their hold on power for ever. These are the leaders, the RSS, primarily, and its affiliates, of lesser consequence. The BJP is merely the implementation agency and has nothing much to contribute, as we have already seen in the past years whenever they have been in power (counting Vajpayee's five years, it is now eleven or twelve years).

The other section are the gullible, who have been carefully instructed that all that is happening is merely a realignment of institutional practice with the reality on the ground. They have been informed that there is no truth to the squeals of the Muslims, the Dalit, the liberals or the defeated candidates of the Congress (all four equated with each other in the so informing) and other opposition parties about the subversion of national institutions.

When you look at the current situation in India, you have to understand that these are two different groups, and that they cannot be pushed together into an impermeable mass. Your comments seem to assume that these people are all one and the same in outlook. That is far from the truth.

 

[Vikki]

Loved it...if all muslims of sub continent are like him, there wouldnt be any hindu muslim fights

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Not perceived but factual atrocities committed by erst while Muslim rulers on Hindus.

Having said that I am staunchly opposed to the idea of holding the current generation Muslims responsible for the atrocities committed by their fore fathers.

If current generation muslims don't approve of their historical actions, then why are they muslims at all? No, it is not just forefathers as people can convert into or out of it. Also, in 600AD, there was no Islam. So, it is not simply that one becomes muslim because he is born to muslim family. If one disapproves of the historical aspects of Islam, then he must disown that history and get out of Islam. Not getting out of Islam shows support for these actions

 

[Smarana Mitra]

Not judiciary you dimwit. When someone is still investigating (even by a kangaroo court) whether a structure was illegally demolished will anyone go ahead and construct another structure over the demolished one ? Temple Construction is being done by indian state cooperation not judiciary. It should (I hate to be sucked in to indian state logic though) atleast wait until both judgements are passed - something anyone with a common heart will do.

The idea that the demolition was illegal does not make sense as this is war. Wars are never legal as laws are just means of cheap ways to avoid war. Since demolition of temple by Mughals was also not legal, there simply is no logic in talking of legal or illegal things

 

[TheGreatMaratha]

Really stopped watching when he mentioned that faith of Hindus/Muslims/Christians shouldn't be questioned.

Why shouldn't any faith be questioned? In fact, we should break these corrupt religious institutions who justify anything nowadays based on religion. Religion needs to be brought down from its pedestal that people have elevated to and people should be encouraged to follow the path of rationalism and scientific temper.

 

[Cookie Monster]

There are two sections, and this needs understanding, comprehension; one section is cynical and manipulative. Their programme is founded on the destruction of the system as it is, and its conversion to a system that will perpetuate their hold on power for ever. These are the leaders, the RSS, primarily, and its affiliates, of lesser consequence. The BJP is merely the implementation agency and has nothing much to contribute, as we have already seen in the past years whenever they have been in power (counting Vajpayee's five years, it is now eleven or twelve years).

The other section are the gullible, who have been carefully instructed that all that is happening is merely a realignment of institutional practice with the reality on the ground. They have been informed that there is no truth to the squeals of the Muslims, the Dalit, the liberals or the defeated candidates of the Congress (all four equated with each other in the so informing) and other opposition parties about the subversion of national institutions.

When you look at the current situation in India, you have to understand that these are two different groups, and that they cannot be pushed together into an impermeable mass. Your comments seem to assume that these people are all one and the same in outlook. That is far from the truth.

That's fine if there are two groups...usually it is that way...few are on the extremes...and a large number ends up being a silent majority. If the majority just stands and watches those fringe elements get away with their ideology...then they are also part of the problem.

 

[Joe Shearer]

If the majority just stands and watches those fringe elements get away with their ideology...then they are also part of the problem.

In this case, both facile and untrue. If you want me to explain, it will be a long post, and I will have to interrupt it a dozen times to complete it.

So, if you are serious about wanting to know another point of view, I will try to present it, but only if you are seriously interested in listening, not if you want to score points.

 

[Cookie Monster]

In this case, both facile and untrue. If you want me to explain, it will be a long post, and I will have to interrupt it a dozen times to complete it.

So, if you are serious about wanting to know another point of view, I will try to present it, but only if you are seriously interested in listening, not if you want to score points.

I'm not here to score points...

It doesn't matter to me as a Pakistani...what happens with Babri Masjid and Indian Muslims at large...
...as in it doesn't matter to me any more than it would matter if it happened in any other country.

It just effects me at a human level...just as it would have effected u when u heard about genocide in Rwanda or that one picture which won an award(I forget the name) where an African child is so starved that he could barely crawl(drag himself). I know these are things different in scale...just using these examples to illustrate a point.

If Indian Muslims got together and killed Hindus(or any other group) while the police stood by and the state didn't prosecute anyone...I would be here saying the same. Difference of religion or color of skin and other such things don't make anyone less human. I have raised similar objections before...not too long ago I posted against the retard mullahs who were raising hell bcuz Imran Khan wanted to appoint some qadiyani guy as an economic advisor.

Perhaps u r confusing my recent replies to Indian trolls(intentional) as if I'm trying to score some points against India in an India/Pak competition of some sort. Those posts were intentional trolling...to troll the trolls. I have two different modes of engagement...with a few select posters that can debate in a respectful manner and stay objective...I debate in the same manner...
...others that are clearly trolling...I reply them in kind(sometimes).

 

[AfrazulMandal]

Does not matter if a 'Muslim' has this opinion.

All Muslim sites under Hindu/other occupation MUST (and WILL) BE returned to suzerainty of Islam.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

There is no solid proof that there was a mandir at this place. The RSS goons usually burry idols and then take a mob and dig it out and claimed it as mandir. What the hindus failed to understand is that muslims will never make a mosque on top of mandir, an idol worshipping place, considered unclean by muslims.
The court could have turned it into museum or kept status quo but it chose the hindu way. I as a Pakistani am happy, it might knock some sense into indian muslims.

Wrong move.

SO WHAT IF A TEMPLE existed?

SO WHAT IF IDOLS are there?

Does it invalidate the legality of a Masjid that was built and that stood for 500 years?

Will you say that yeah please return the Kaaba to Pagans if they ask for it?

Let us not make this a matter of politics. This is Imaan - plain and simple. The politics can be based on managing the consensus - avoiding the Hindu attacks on Muslims to take imaginary revenge today for their cowardice 5 centuries back.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

You've no idea what you are talking about.

Kashi- Vishwanath mandir converted into Gyanvapi mosque

Mathura- Mosque built on top of Krishna Janmbhoomi

Yeah so what?

People can change their religions. Why can't mute buildings be repurposed for the same people???

Perhaps you can question your ethics - you destroy buildings, that is your 5000 year old culture.

Muslims are not barbarians.

The Aya Sofia still exists.
Same with the Masjids above.

There is a difference between you and us and this difference should remain.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

If they convert for a rice which is life sustaining commodity then all power to them - also shows they are smart. What does brahmanism give them - untouchability and humiliation.

If they are converting for a bag of rice it should the value of their parent Hinduism, does it not?

 

[AfrazulMandal]

I don't know what is funnier. The Sanghis seeking the legitimacy from the Muslims, or the Muslims willingly (and unwittingly) providing it. The same can be said for the liberals as well.

Like I said, before. The Hindus will kill.
The Hindu liberals will look the other way and lecture us for outraging.

 

[AfrazulMandal]

If current generation muslims don't approve of their historical actions, then why are they muslims at all? No, it is not just forefathers as people can convert into or out of it. Also, in 600AD, there was no Islam. So, it is not simply that one becomes muslim because he is born to muslim family. If one disapproves of the historical aspects of Islam, then he must disown that history and get out of Islam. Not getting out of Islam shows support for these actions

Wait.

So what do you want us to disown?

La ilaha Ilallah?

Dawaah?

Kehna kya chahte ho?