PN mini-submarine fleet

[MastanKhan]

Thanks, I will check him out. Another nuke experiment done was, instead of using the nuke directly on a ship, they detonated it underwater, creating a tsunami. It was found to damage a flotilla a lot more than air-burst.

I will try to dig up the article - the folks that developed stealth for fighter aircraft took the ideas to the navy, designing a faceted submarine, which improved stealth even further. Currently stealth is achieved by tiles / other material and acoustic suppression, what they proposed was shaping (faceted, diamond-like shaping). This was rejected, not because it didn't work, but because it slowed down the submarine a few knots.

I wonder if the gap between Russian / Chinese and US submarines are smaller than at any point in past history.

Hi,

Joe Buff wrote about it in his work of fiction that I read over a decade ago---.

"

• Deep Sound Channel, 2000.
• Thunder in the Deep, 2001.
• Crush Depth, 2002.
• Tidal Rip, 2003.
• Straits of Power, 2004.
• Seas of Crisis, 2005. "

I wrote about it here---I guess no one understood the significance---.

With the pump jet technology---yes---the gap has narrowed---but otoh---the US tech has also advanced into other dimensions---.

Well---when an explosion is underwater---it is the concussion that smashes the metal structure from underneath---or crushes a submerged vessel upto a certain distance away---.

Tsunami can be survived by a large ship---but the shock wave of explosion underwater will crush the structure plates / frame from under a ship and throw the ship up in the air---to fall back and sink.

So---it just becomes a proximity explosion---where you really don't want to hit the target but want the explosion to happen deep under the keel.

 

[Rafi]

http://www.hisutton.com/DRASS.html

Interest has been shown for a custom made boat for the PN, based on the 450 design. The PN is especially impressed with the dual role, ie coastal sub and special forces insertion/extraction.

The Italians are keen, and are offering decent terms, PN wants ToT to build these boats at home. Price will decide if a deal takes place.

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

Interest has been shown for a custom made boat for the PN, based on the 450 design. The PN is especially impressed with the dual role, ie coastal sub and special forces insertion/extraction.

The Italians are keen, and are offering decent terms, PN wants ToT to build these boats at home. Price will decide if a deal takes place.

How many Subs would PN be looking to buy?

guys, someone mentioned Hyundai's compact submarine earlier. Look what I found during my research:

CRITICAL DESIGN ISSUES / OBSERVATIONS WITH HHI KS500A S/M

S No Design Observation Comment
1. Concept An initial concept and not proceeded to engineering design or industrialization
2. Past Experience Shipbuilder has no past or current experience of building compact submarines.
3. Main Propulsion Batteries Li Ion batteries are without a mechanism to charge them at sea in this S/M. S/M cannot dive after first discharge.
4. Main Propulsion Batteries Battery bank cannot be discharged more than 60%, so effectively can only use 40% capacity of the declared endurance.
5. Main Propulsion Batteries Li Ion batteries, if completely discharged, have to be replaced. Batteries are not in a separate compartment or outside the pressure hull so replacement is time consuming.
6. Main Propulsion Batteries Batteries inside the pressure hull. Any chemical event or fire will directly affect the crew with gas exchange in pressurized chamber / hull.
7. Autonomy loss Declared autonomy is 2000NM but gets adjusted to 1200NM due to above observation.
8. Flank / conformal Array Sonar S/M does not have appropriate length to use the flank /conformal array capabilities specifically in lower frequencies due to limited length, hence very limited range.
9. Non-Compliant rescue solution The vessel is not compatible and compliant with NATO standard S/M rescue requirements and methods.
10. Sail design obstruction The “built in” sail design does not allow crew movement from bow to stern.
11. Emergency Power Generator S/M has no emergency generator in the design, putting life safety at risk.
12. Questionable Propulsion System The propulsion system has design issues, and still not perfected in many S/Ms such as Kilo class.
13. No Torpedo Defence The Bow mounted sonar can detect incoming torpedo but submarine has no countermeasure launchers.

 

[Rafi]

How many Subs would PN be looking to buy?

guys, someone mentioned Hyundai's compact submarine earlier. Look what I found during my research:

CRITICAL DESIGN ISSUES / OBSERVATIONS WITH HHI KS500A S/M

S No Design Observation Comment
1. Concept An initial concept and not proceeded to engineering design or industrialization
2. Past Experience Shipbuilder has no past or current experience of building compact submarines.
3. Main Propulsion Batteries Li Ion batteries are without a mechanism to charge them at sea in this S/M. S/M cannot dive after first discharge.
4. Main Propulsion Batteries Battery bank cannot be discharged more than 60%, so effectively can only use 40% capacity of the declared endurance.
5. Main Propulsion Batteries Li Ion batteries, if completely discharged, have to be replaced. Batteries are not in a separate compartment or outside the pressure hull so replacement is time consuming.
6. Main Propulsion Batteries Batteries inside the pressure hull. Any chemical event or fire will directly affect the crew with gas exchange in pressurized chamber / hull.
7. Autonomy loss Declared autonomy is 2000NM but gets adjusted to 1200NM due to above observation.
8. Flank / conformal Array Sonar S/M does not have appropriate length to use the flank /conformal array capabilities specifically in lower frequencies due to limited length, hence very limited range.
9. Non-Compliant rescue solution The vessel is not compatible and compliant with NATO standard S/M rescue requirements and methods.
10. Sail design obstruction The “built in” sail design does not allow crew movement from bow to stern.
11. Emergency Power Generator S/M has no emergency generator in the design, putting life safety at risk.
12. Questionable Propulsion System The propulsion system has design issues, and still not perfected in many S/Ms such as Kilo class.
13. No Torpedo Defence The Bow mounted sonar can detect incoming torpedo but submarine has no countermeasure launchers.

3 and also licence producing in house.

 

[syed_yusuf]

3 and also licence producing in house.

why just 3, is it to replace existing ones or to add to them ..

 

[Thorough Pro]

The real issue in the past experiment was the radiation that came with the tidal wave. There was no way to get rid of that and the ships needed to be abandoned

Hi,

Joe Buff wrote about it in his work of fiction that I read over a decade ago---.

"

• Deep Sound Channel, 2000.
• Thunder in the Deep, 2001.
• Crush Depth, 2002.
• Tidal Rip, 2003.
• Straits of Power, 2004.
• Seas of Crisis, 2005. "

I wrote about it here---I guess no one understood the significance---.

With the pump jet technology---yes---the gap has narrowed---but otoh---the US tech has also advanced into other dimensions---.

Well---when an explosion is underwater---it is the concussion that smashes the metal structure from underneath---or crushes a submerged vessel upto a certain distance away---.

Tsunami can be survived by a large ship---but the shock wave of explosion underwater will crush the structure plates / frame from under a ship and throw the ship up in the air---to fall back and sink.

So---it just becomes a proximity explosion---where you really don't want to hit the target but want the explosion to happen deep under the keel.

 

[ghazi52]

AhmAd IbrAhim‏ @AhmAdTipu7

Pakistan Navy is interested in Italian DG 450 Midget submarine for replacing its Cosmos MG110 Midgets. DG 450 can serve as Shallow Water attack sub as well as for underwater carrier for special ops. Total numbers and price tag is unknown yet and discussions are in initial phase

 

[Rafi]

why just 3, is it to replace existing ones or to add to them ..

Negotiations are to purchase 3 outright and then to licence produce design with indigenous systems.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Negotiations are to purchase 3 outright and then to licence produce design with indigenous systems.

Is the idea to build a sizable mini-SSK fleet ... e.g. 9-12 in total for A2/AD AShW and ASW?

 

[Rafi]

Is the idea to build a sizable mini-SSK fleet ... e.g. 9-12 in total for A2/AD AShW and ASW?

Yes sizeable number to be able to send multiple spec forces teams insertion/extraction.

And also to use them to patrol coast and EEZ.

 

[Armchair]

Hi,

Joe Buff wrote about it in his work of fiction that I read over a decade ago---.

"

• Deep Sound Channel, 2000.
• Thunder in the Deep, 2001.
• Crush Depth, 2002.
• Tidal Rip, 2003.
• Straits of Power, 2004.
• Seas of Crisis, 2005. "

I wrote about it here---I guess no one understood the significance---.

With the pump jet technology---yes---the gap has narrowed---but otoh---the US tech has also advanced into other dimensions---.

Well---when an explosion is underwater---it is the concussion that smashes the metal structure from underneath---or crushes a submerged vessel upto a certain distance away---.

Tsunami can be survived by a large ship---but the shock wave of explosion underwater will crush the structure plates / frame from under a ship and throw the ship up in the air---to fall back and sink.

So---it just becomes a proximity explosion---where you really don't want to hit the target but want the explosion to happen deep under the keel.

There were some actual experiments the US did with nuclear weapons and retired ships. I am trying to rack my brain for it. It was found that exploding them underwater was far more effective than exploding them air burst.

Bilal Khan 777 does it again - he has found the exact thing that PN needs. I just hope they can build them in numbers, and if possible, in the future design one themselves and export it.

 

[MastanKhan]

There were some actual experiments the US did with nuclear weapons and retired ships. I am trying to rack my brain for it. It was found that exploding them underwater was far more effective than exploding them air burst.
.

Hi,

that is what I stated in my post on this issue and the same thing I wrote about 1/2 a decade ago---.

Mini sub kilotonnuc---detonated underwater under the enemy ship or subs---

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

3 and also licence producing in house.

So this seems as a new CONOPS in PN for coastal subs, expansion of special forces domain, and additional tasks.
This seems like a smart move on part of PN. Coastal sub costs less than a conventional platform, but is able to do a lot of the same tasks.

There were some actual experiments the US did with nuclear weapons and retired ships. I am trying to rack my brain for it. It was found that exploding them underwater was far more effective than exploding them air burst.

Bilal Khan 777 does it again - he has found the exact thing that PN needs. I just hope they can build them in numbers, and if possible, in the future design one themselves and export it.

Just good research i think.

1-Sang-O II / K-300 [North Korea]
2-Fateh Class [Iran]
3- HDS-500 Midget Submarine

The HDS-500 design features a distinct streamlines sail and 'X' form tail mounted behind an integrated pumpjet. Less obvious innovations include a mini wet-dry hangar in the tail.


a) Flexible Payoad Module (FPM)
b) Integrated sail
c) Intercept sonar
d) Hatches for Payload Modules
e) 533mm (21") torpedo tube (x2)
f) Conformal sonar array
g) 324mm (12.75") torpedo tubes (x4)


Specification
Length: 37 meters
Beam: 4.5 meter
Displacement: 510 tons surfaced
Speed: Maximum 20 kt submerged, 7 kt cruising
Operating depth: 250 meters
Endurance : 21 days, 2,000 nautical miles
Armament: 2 x 533mm (21") heavyweight torpedoes and 4 x 324mm (12.75") lightweight torpedoes.
Crew: 10 plus 4 combat swimmers
http://www.hisutton.com/News - Korea building new HDS-400 midget submarine.html


Why not pump-jet propulsors,they would allow them to operate in shallow waters.

This is the feedback of your Korean submarine from my submariner friends:

CRITICAL DESIGN ISSUES / OBSERVATIONS WITH HHI KS500A S/M

1. Concept:An initial concept and not proceeded to engineering design or industrialization
2. Past Experience: Shipbuilder has no past or current experience of building compact submarines.
3. Main Propulsion Batteries: Li Ion batteries are without a mechanism to charge them at sea in this S/M. S/M cannot dive after first discharge.
4. Main Propulsion Batteries: Battery bank cannot be discharged more than 60%, so effectively can only use 40% capacity of the declared endurance.
5. Main Propulsion Batteries: Li Ion batteries, if completely discharged, have to be replaced. Batteries are not in a separate compartment or outside the pressure hull so replacement is time consuming.
6. Main Propulsion Batteries: Batteries inside the pressure hull. Any chemical event or fire will directly affect the crew with gas exchange in pressurized chamber / hull.
7. Autonomy loss: Declared autonomy is 2000NM but gets adjusted to 1200NM due to above observation.
8. Flank / conformal Array Sonar: S/M does not have appropriate length to use the flank /conformal array capabilities specifically in lower frequencies due to limited length, hence very limited range.
9. Non-Compliant rescue solution: The vessel is not compatible and compliant with NATO standard S/M rescue requirements and methods.
10. Sail design obstruction: The “built in” sail design does not allow crew movement from bow to stern.
11. Emergency Power Generator: S/M has no emergency generator in the design, putting life safety at risk.
12. Questionable Propulsion System: The propulsion system has design issues, and still not perfected in many S/Ms such as Kilo class.
13. No Torpedo Defence: The Bow mounted sonar can detect incoming torpedo but submarine has no countermeasure launchers.
14. No AIP System: The submarine data does not show any AIP system for further U/W endurance during critical operations.

 

[Sine Nomine]

This is the feedback of your Korean submarine from my submariner friends:

CRITICAL DESIGN ISSUES / OBSERVATIONS WITH HHI KS500A S/M

So,she is out of Question for us.
Sir,we have experience in this field,why don't we try ourselves?

 

[Bilal Khan 777]

So,she is out of Question for us.
Sir,we have experience in this field,why don't we try ourselves?

I strongly believe we should try, but with experienced hands on deck.

Hi,

that is what I stated in my post on this issue and the same thing I wrote about 1/2 a decade ago---.

Mini sub kilotonnuc---detonated underwater under the enemy ship or subs---

The mini-subs in PN will always remain conventional.