PLA's Type 052D destroyers can beat Vietnam's Su-22s: report

[BoQ77]

It's still the same gulf, same ships and same missiles anyways. It's not different war, continuation of Iraqis war.

Put aside the battleship near hit case, the US carrier almost hit by exocet was hottest topic at that time when the news was spreaded by US and British sailors. The Brits just can't stop bragging how good they were in shooting down the exocet when it got within visual range of less than 10 miles away while Americans began to panic. British often bragged they are smarter and better.



Basically, any aircraft that is upgraded to carry advanced long range anti~ship missile would pose serious threat to even latest aegis ship.

If an su22 could carry 4 such missiles and there are 6 attack aircrafts altogether launching 24x fire and forget advanced anti~ship missiles at 1 or 2 aegis destroyers, the destroyers are at great risk. The su22s would have to fly at high altitude in order to launch the missiles at maximum effective range and quickly turn around to get out of long range hq6 SAMs range.

It depends on the ships ability to shoot all the missiles and jam/spoof missiles without mistake. A ship is always a large target. In most situation, ships would rely on fighter support for protection engaging enemy aircrafts before they get within anti-ship missile range.

I said attackers should fly close to sea water level to hide from radar tracking into attack phase when they climbing up with or without electronic stealth mode and launch the missiles toward the destroyer, then they should dive to above sea water level.
by doing that attackers could approach the destroyer as close as 40-50km and leave very short time for the defender to react.

 

[bdslph]

PLA's Type 052D destroyers can beat Vietnam's Su-22s: report
Staff Reporter 2015-04-23 15:06 (GMT+8)

China's Type 052D guided-missile destroyers have the capability to intercept and shoot down the the People's Air Force of Vietnam's Su-22 fighter bombers should a future conflict between two nations over the disputed South China Sea take place, according to the Beijing-based Sina Military Network on Apr. 20.

The former Soviet Union provided 180 MiG-21bis fighters, 40 Su-22M3 ground attackers and six Su-22U trainers to the People's Air Force of Vietnam in late 1979 to replace its obsolete A-37 attackers and F-5E fighters captured from the South Vietnamese Air Force at the end of the Vietnam War. Later, Vietnam received an additional 32 Su-22M4 ground attackers and four Su-22UM3 trainers in 1988. They were once considered the most dangerous threat to Chinese ground forces in the border region between the two countries.

During the Johnson South Reef Skirmish in the South China Sea in 1988, the Su-22M3 and Su-22M4 were not deployed against the vessels of the People's Liberation Army Navy, though Chinese sailors were warned about the aircraft. Flightglobal, an online news and information website related to the aviation and aerospace industries, said Vietnam currently has 38 various types of Su-22 in services. More than 50 of them are in storage.

With an attacking range of 500 kilometers, Vietnam's Su-22s are capable of operating over the disputed Paracel and Spratly islands. Vietnam introduced a total number of 24 advanced Su-30MK2V fighter bombers from Russia to replace the obsolete Su-22 in recent years. Yet this number is not enough for Vietnam to decommission all of its Su-22s. In a future confrontation between China and Vietnam over the South China Sea, the Su-22 attackers are unlikely to survive an attack from the PLA's modern destroyers, the report said.

the article makes no sence

 

[kungfugymnast]

I said attackers should fly close to sea water level to hide from radar tracking into attack phase when they climbing up with or without electronic stealth mode and launch the missiles toward the destroyer, then they should dive to above sea water level.
by doing that attackers could approach the destroyer as close as 40-50km and leave very short time for the defender to react.

The new phased array radar on aegis could detect fighters at low level even below 200ft at open sea. Unlike in the past where ships using old pulse doppler radar, the new aegis ships use continuous scan radar AESA/PESA being fitted on all 4 edge angles giving it 180 degree detection plus additional radar on top.

Flying low at open sea no longer works against new ageis ships. Also present day long range SAMs too have upgraded that these large missiles have active homing and able to engage low flying and small targets accurately at very high speed mach5~6 giving very little time to react.

 

[gambit]

The new phased array radar on aegis could detect fighters at low level even below 200ft at open sea. Unlike in the past where ships using old pulse doppler radar, the new aegis ships use continuous scan radar AESA/PESA being fitted on all 4 edge angles giving it 180 degree detection plus additional radar on top.

Flying low at open sea no longer works against new ageis ships. Also present day long range SAMs too have upgraded that these large missiles have active homing and able to engage low flying and small targets accurately at very high speed mach5~6 giving very little time to react.

Wrong. You do not know what you are talking about. This is real physics, not 'Chinese physics'.

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

Radar is line of sight (LOS) limited, no matter what type is it. The lower the platform altitude, the less the distance the radar can see.

 

[kungfugymnast]

Perhaps in your mind it is.


So, and which US carrier would this be? And when, where would this have taken place? There were four carrier battle groups operating in the Persian Gulf, together with the two additional battle groups in the Red Sea. None of these came under fire from Exocet (or Silkworm, for that matter).
US Navy in Desert Shield/Desert Storm

Here your Brit angle: it is the Gloucester i.e. BB Wisconsin story. The only difference between the US and the RN escort was that the Brits had more recent experience (Falklands), not that their Sea Dart was somehow superior to the SM1MR.
Missile vs. Missile – HMS Gloucester’s Finest Hour | Defence of the Realm

This topic was bragged by British servicemen at that time. I forgot which carrier was it. The Brits were pestering Americans at that time. The news probably true as the Americans were left speechless without arguing back. The source came from these servicemen and from news articles and military naval books from 90's, internet was non~existence until 1994 when it was available outside America.

Wrong. You do not know what you are talking about. This is real physics, not 'Chinese physics'.

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

Radar is line of sight (LOS) limited, no matter what type is it. The lower the platform altitude, the less the distance the radar can see.

Yes but not the phased array radar. US or Asian modern Aegis ships that copied arleigh burke style destroyers actually stick these AESA radars on edges with the lowest angle scanning towards sea level so that they could see low flying aircraft or missile further away but not at the max detection of the radar. That's the point of aegis as fleet defender role.

 

[gambit]

Yes but not the phased array radar. US or Asian modern Aegis ships that copied arleigh burke style destroyers actually stick these AESA radars on edges with the lowest angle scanning towards sea level so that they could see low flying aircraft or missile further away but not at the max detection of the radar. That's the point of aegis as fleet defender role.

You STILL do not know what you are talking about.

The AEGIS-type technology is not about the phased array technology but about the data processing and network integration with other platforms. The link that I provided for you is UNIVERSAL. Radar signals DO NOT curve over the horizon. If an aircraft is beyond the radar's LOS, no matter what technology it is, the radar will not see that aircraft.

This is not a high school sandbox, kid. There are adults here and some of us adults have actual military experience. I am a USAF veteran from two jets: F-111 and F-16. In my civilian life, I taught avionics and designed field radar tests of low flying unmanned platforms, aka 'drones'. Now you are telling me, and everyone else, that phase array signals are magical that bends with the curvature of the Earth. A-freaking-mazing.

 

[Brainsucker]

This topic was bragged by British servicemen at that time. I forgot which carrier was it. The Brits were pestering Americans at that time. The news probably true as the Americans were left speechless without arguing back. The source came from these servicemen and from news articles and military naval books from 90's, internet was non~existence until 1994 when it was available outside America.

Yes but not the phased array radar. US or Asian modern Aegis ships that copied arleigh burke style destroyers actually stick these AESA radars on edges with the lowest angle scanning towards sea level so that they could see low flying aircraft or missile further away but not at the max detection of the radar. That's the point of aegis as fleet defender role.

That's way they need another means of radar. Like Satellite, AWACS, or helicopter to see the area beyond the horizon. But don't worry, China has them all already.

 

[gambit]

so what is the range of detection against low flying target as you estimate on Type 052D?
I made 1 illustration for that

View attachment 264304

Please see the radar/visual horizon calculator link I provided in post 94. The Chinese ship is no exception to that rule.

 

[BoQ77]

Yes but not the phased array radar. US or Asian modern Aegis ships that copied arleigh burke style destroyers actually stick these AESA radars on edges with the lowest angle scanning towards sea level so that they could see low flying aircraft or missile further away but not at the max detection of the radar. That's the point of aegis as fleet defender role.

Sampson AESA

EL/M-2248 MF-STAR

===========================================
Aegis has very powerful radar which can detect even small RCS targets at huge ranges and with high rate of update, but as result it is very heavy and located low, reducing the detection range of skimmering missiles. Its illumination radars are also very powerful and long range (can fire at 240 km), but they can only address 3 targets simultaneously (to sides, front - only 1).

Sachsen class destroyer has much higher located multifunctional AESA radar (APAR). It can detect skimmering missiles at longer range than Aegis and engage much more targets simultaneously. But its much smaller and as result max range is limited to 150 km (for low RCS even lower). It has also SMART-L radar for long range detection, but this radar has low update rate and it cant illuminate targets and make terminal guidance. The update rate especially important vs ballistic missiles.

Conclusion: Aegis is much better vs. ballistic targets and long range high flying targets. Sachsen is much better vs. big number of low flying targets.


Source: The Great Asian Showdown: India’s Kolkata Class v/s China’s Type-52D Destroyer | Page 10

 

[gambit]

Sachsen class destroyer has much higher located multifunctional AESA radar (APAR).

Higher physical location mean longer distance.

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

Real physics.

 

[BoQ77]

Show us any proof of Your claim that the Su-22 can carry the Kh-59ME or tell us at least what ASM they could use ?

Vietnam newly upgraded Su-22 with ADS Talisman

17.08.2015 The flight tests with ADS 'Talisman' successfully accomplished in the customer's territory. In flight intercepts and air defense penetration ADS 'Talisman' confirmed its effectiveness. It was the 'electronic stealth' mode, particularly emphasized by the Customer, where contemporary fighter-interceptors failed to detect and 'kill' the aircraft fitted with ADS 'Talisman' throughout the whole time span of interception (attack).

Source: PLA's Type 052D destroyers can beat Vietnam's Su-22s: report | Page 5

 

[BoQ77]

Conclusion: Aegis is much better vs. ballistic targets and long range high flying targets.

Sachsen is much better vs. big number of low flying targets.

It's understandable because Aegis destroyers designed for ABM which always at very high altitude.
Kolkata or Sachsen class with higher positioned AESA radar better to handle saturate attacks by AShM

Higher physical location mean longer distance.

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

Real physics.

Thanks. Physics rule is always true.

 

[IsaacNewton]

Vietnam still uses su-22? Those are a generation behind most of chinese planes.

 

[black-hawk_101]

Is PLAN upgrading all of their older DDGs to a single standard? Then what about the older Corvettes-Frigates I think they should also gone in upgradation and should be given to PN.

 

[BoQ77]

Vietnam still uses su-22? Those are a generation behind most of chinese planes.

We buy hundreds of second hand at very cheap price decades ago, when China still not have Su-27 / J-11.

Today, there're hundreds of China J6, J7, J8 ... as you know.
If they are still useful, why not using them?

FYI, J-7 is the most quantitive aircraft in PLAAF,

The 44th Fighter Division was established in July 1969. The division is organized into three regiments and reportedly flies the J-6 and J-7 aircraft.